Roxanne Blue

OK...I'm gonna pick a fight... I think.
In a previous thread on sexual oppression, I walked away from the argument that trans-women experience misogyny as truly as genetic women, or that we are able to experience being female - even if we have not begun or made our physical transition.

Surreal insisted that I could only experience being female when others regarded me as such, and that it had nothing to do with how I might think or experience reality. It's an incredibly condescending and insulting thing to be told that my experiences of reality are not real or genuine. If I didn't experience being female within my own mind first ( I was five or six when I realized someone had given me the wrong parts) I would never have conceived the possibility that I could fix this birth defect.

There were also some dismissive and insulting comments made about "mental transsexuals" who were "only playing female in SL". Not all of us can afford the costs (financial, emotional, and family crises for a start) of undertaking our transition. That does NOT mean that those trans-women are any less genuine transsexuals than I am, or others who can "go stealth" and not be "read". Unless you are actually able to read someone's mind and find that the "guy" does not feel genuine transgender identity, it is presumptuous in the extreme to dismiss my transgender sisters who cannot or will not physically transition.

Another recurring theme from my critics was that we trans-women act "too feminine", "hyper-feminine" or as some version of a female caricature. Again, this is both condescending and very disrespectful from people who have no idea how we experience life.

When a genetic female experiments with being feminine versus "tomboy" behaviors and other aspects of being female socially, it's usually during her early development. For us, those questions do not even arise until we accept that we are trans-women and try to define ourselves. Do we make mistakes, and go "overboard" at times? Of course we try out various ways of being female and feminine before we begin to know those that suit us. It's ironic that genetic women are so dismissive and disrespectful to feminine behavior, whether it's ours, or that of other genetic women. One of the reasons that feminism cannot garner more "traction" with many women is that it insults their choices to be feminine, and suggests that "male" behavior is better / more authentic and valuable.

We trans-women and trans-men get to define ourselves --- just like genetic men & women. You non-trans people are NOT entitled to do that. And, btw, we're getting more than a little pissed off at the straight world treating us like we're freaks for your curiosity or amusement!

For a very well written and intelligent explanation of my position on the subject of oppression and trans-misogyny, check out what Julia Serrano says in her book, Whipping Girl... julia serano - Whipping Girl

So, here's my poll on transgender oppression... of course there will be pie.....

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"Sometimes... there's just a little girl inside of each and every one of us who's looking for people who understand..." - Xiomara.

Ingrid N

This poll has no non-binary gender option.

I feel this is oppressive towards me

And I can't even vote in the poll to say how much the poll is oppressing me

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Bard Jameson

I'm just this guy, you know?

I am a male who has not oppressed trans-people.

Oh, and IBTL

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Kyllie Wylie

You forgot the "I think T-girls are hot" option!

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Envoy Costagravas

I'm a considerate person, and I oppress no one. I did, however, once play backup for the Trans-Siberian Orchestra on one of their Christmas tours.

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Roxanne Blue

Let's ask Calpernia what she thinks of those odd questions people think they are entitled to ask us about our lives and genitals..

Surreal

Well we can start the fight right here.

Point One

My first assertion was unless you grew up as a girl, you didn't experience growing up as a girl. You never responded to that statement. I'm talking specifically about how people treated you... not what went on in your mind.

Also, growing up as a girl is a very cultural experience. What an American girl experiences is not going to be the same as what a girl in Afghanistan experiences.

I sincerely doubt you experienced my childhood (which is shared by a lot of women). By that I mean, denied educational opportunities because you were supposed to grow up, get married, have babies and be a homemaker. Wear dresses, act like a little lady, don't show anger, and whatever you do, don't demonstrate how much smarter you are than your brother. Cook, clean, and pick up for the men in the family.

Point Two

My second assertion is more nuanced than what you're representing, in that I never said your experiences are not real or genuine. Real and genuine however don't mean the same.

A superficial examination of the picture you posted makes me think that likely you pass a lot. Not 100% because certain structures can't be altered ... shape of arms, etc. I'm guessing that you've probably come in for some of the crap women put up with.

But tell me something. When you don't pass, how do sort out which brand of discrimination and offense you're experiencing? And how exactly do you know when you're not passing?

Point Three

Now if you're a trans lesbian and you want to say that the lesbian community rejects you as not being authentic, well then I'd agree.... although if you're post-op the acceptance level goes way up. Nothing says commitment to being a lesbian like cutting off the dick.

I've got a trans lesbian friend staying with me right now and she doesn't pass, so she gets quite a bit of flak. Both from ordinary people who see her as trans and from lesbians who don't see her as part of the tribe. (Some of it is probably jealously since her girlfriend is seriously hawt).

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Surreal

Yet isn't what you're doing defining born-females? By your argument, shouldn't we be able to define ourselves?

As for the rest... well yeah. Oppression is oppression is oppression. No one should be treated like a freak, nor discriminated against.

As for the curiosity, mine is an effort to understand something I can't experience. If that's a problem for you, then maybe you should rethink inviting discussion by starting posts like this.

Eirik

Does watching shemale porn count as oppression?

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Gareth Nelson

Yeah, I feel sorry for those guys in "tranny surprise"

Cristiano

I can already see from the last two responses that this thread will not end well. This is a very sensitive and potentially explosive topic. If it goes downhill I will close it.

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Siobhan OFlynn

IBTL

Damn you, Bard! You're oppressing me by adding your IBTL before I was able to post mine!

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Arilynn

Interesting post, Roxanne. I appreciate you sharing your perspective, even if I disagree with your characterizations of some of Surreal's replies in the other thread.

One part that especially interested me was this:
I have at times thought that some trans-women seem to portray more of a caricature of femininity and have wondered about this. I don't mean that to be offensive or disrespectful, but that has been my impression at times. I thought part of it was to project their femaleness in a way that was completely unambiguous. It also seemed to be, as you said, part of the "trying out" of identities that most people go through as they grow up. But I have been bothered by it for a few reasons. First, I object to what I did perceive as a caricature for being overly restrictive and outmoded. Second, as it appeared to me to be a caricature, it seemed inauthentic.

None of this suggests that "male" behavior is better/more authentic, and there is nothing wrong with an identity that is completely and even somewhat archaically "feminine". But when it rankles when it appears that someone's idea of being a woman is only comprised of these narrow gender stereotypes - it would rankle me coming from a genetic woman as well. And it does so even more if one assumes, perhaps falsely, that at least part of this projection has been mindfully selected versus inherent to that person.

But thanks for giving me some more to think about on this topic.

Gareth Nelson

I might as well get back to serious mode after the shemale comment above (apologies for that).

My question to everyone would be: why does it matter at all if someone appears "hyper-feminine"?

I would direct this to Arilynn in particular - If someone else appears to be "too female", is that really a suggestion on their behalf that they believe "this is all that being a woman is"? I think much more likely is that it's over-compensation, for someone who has felt like the classic "women trapped in a man's body" for life, when they're finally able to "break free", over-compensation is almost inevitable.

Of course, personally I find the idea of being "born in the wrong body" rather suspect, I haven't yet seen any evidence that one can develop a brain that is neurologically completely identical to the opposite gender while not having visible effects on the rest of the body. That doesn't of course make it wrong to transition if it makes you comfortable in your own body, it's essentially a moot point why someone feels "trapped".

Lewis Luminos

Yes.

And I agree with Cris, I suspect this thread is going to die in a horrible fire.

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Siobhan OFlynn

I was watching a documentary on Showtime about that city in Colorado who's hospital is one of the leaders in doing M-F sex reassignment surgery. If I wasn't in the midst of a blinding sinus headache and foggy head syndrome, I would remember the name of the town and also, the documentary.

One thing that struck me is how completely M-F trans-women embrace being female. By that I mean that it's unusual to see someone who has purposely chosen to have life altering surgery not wearing make up or appearing in public without being what my mother would call "turned out" or"dressed up." I envy that, because as a woman who was born female, I rarely wear make up, don't own more than a couple of dresses and my hair is most likely to be pulled back into a convenient ponytail and not styled at all. I wish I had the energy and desire to look as nice as the trans women look every day. I mean that as a compliment. I envy their enthusiasm at being women.

I hope I've been able to adequately get my feelings across without being dismissive or in any way derogatory toward trans women.

Arilynn

Ultimately, it doesn't really matter in any real way whether someone appears to be a caricature of femininity as I would never say or do anything to them that reflected that judgment. And I agree that it may be overcompensation for whatever reason, which I discussed in my earlier reply.

The only part that irks me is that, as a woman, I do deal with people's false ideas of what a woman is and these inevitably center around archaic notions of women and femininity. So to see these apparently embraced does rankle me at times, although as I said this thread has given me more to think about with regard to this.

Gareth Nelson

I'm told that one requires more makeup in order to pass, while a genetic women can get away with none at all since there's nothing to cover up. I'm also told that this consists of lots of toner and foundation in order to conceal fine hairs, which must also be pulled rather than cut in order to prevent regrowth.

I'm told that there's many informative websites on these subjects on teh intarnetz.

Gareth Nelson

This of course is more an issue on the part of the bigots who would assume "ah, so all women are like this!" then it is on the part of transsexuals.

Rev Eponym

What about unintentional oppression?

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Asher Bertrand

Yes, define yourselves, because no one who isn't trans could possibly know what the experience is like.

By the same token, someone who is not been wholly female or male could know what that experience is like.

You can empathize. You can share many experiences. But you won't share them all. That doesn't make you any better or worse, it's just how it is.

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Arilynn

I don't know how valid this is, but I have seen repeated references in discussions about this to the study mentioned in the following article. In it, researchers found more similarities in a part of the brain between genetic women and male-to-female transsexuals than between genetic woman and genetic men or between male-to-female transsexuals and genetic men.

Gareth Nelson

Roxanne - if I could just ask something:

When you say "we" in your post, are you sure that every single transseuxal agrees? Because i've met many who really aren't bothered by the curiosity.

Siobhan OFlynn

Actually, I believe that part of the reassignment surgery process is electrolysis so that there is no more facial hair, their "adam's apple" is surgically altered and with the female hormones they are taking, they don't really have to wear a lot of make up to make them look feminine anymore.

I think you're thinking of transgendered women prior to the completion of the process of going from M to F. Prior to completing their transformation, certain make up techniques and ways of dressing are necessary. Not so much after surgery.


The documentary was really well done, I thought. I have to search to find the title since I have a completely swollen head at the moment and can't remember my PIN numbers much less anything else. Damn summer colds!

eta: It's Trinidad, Colorado. The documentary is called "Trinidad." Well done and informative film. I'm glad I had an opportunity to see it.

Arilynn

I think you are missing my point.