Menchor Barbosa

As a parent who decided early that hitting a child is not an option, I want to relate a story from when my daughter was small. We had a child who was about my daughter's age who we saw only occasionally who lived near by.

A 3 year old will often put a hand on a parent, and if the parent is wearing loose shorts the hand is often on the leg in the shorts, since that is what they could reach. My daughter did this, I viewed it as a gesture of affection and reassurance, it did not bother me since the hand was on my hip.

The children were playing and the parents talking when the other little girl put her hand on her mother. The mother grabbed the girl's hand said "I told you not to do that" and swatted her daughter hard. The look of pure rage the daughter gave the mother was frightening.

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Surreal

Confusing by design I'd say as it lumps together spanking, hitting and beating.

As someone who was beaten by her parents, I don't confuse the three at all. Spanking are hand slaps to the child's butt. They leave no marks, but work very well for some kids in some situations. I think past a certain age, they lose effectiveness.

My son was spanked a few times, although I don't recall any spanking after ~6. Each time after he'd endangered his safety.

I only hit him once and that was pure reflex after he snuck up behind me and bit me on the ass. (I recall he was about 5 and my ass was mouth high) He was very shocked. I hugged him afterwards and apologized, but I think it taught him a valuable lesson that even people who love you have limits and can screw up. I've always thought that parents who took a "I'm perfect" totalitarian stand towards their kids were riding for a fall.

I'm not a great parent. I consider myself to have made the minimal cut for decent, which isn't surprising as I had appalling role models. But I have a great kid, one with a good heart and excellent character, so I must have done something right.

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eku Zhong

The really really funny thing here..
my western mom .. was a crack hand with the wooden spoon..
and the guilt trips.
my japanese father on the other hand, liked to use what he called 'let's think about it'. He liked to sit down and discuss consequences... often while doing something else with me, and make it part of the activity.

and the funnier thing is that my mother's parents never hit her .. (they probably got her nanny to do that) and she was spoiled rotten .. and to this day loves to tell elaborate tales of all the things she got away with. (some would make your hair curl but anyway)

my father.. both his parents hit him. My grandfather would for extreme behaviour.. quoting always if you want to behave like an animal, you get treated like one. his mother .. my granny is a headcase.. one of those hysterical, unpredictable ppl who fly off the handle for no apparent reason.. she beat him for reasons even she doesnt understand.. she is still a bitter and twisted old prune.. with nobody left to hit.. (she doesnt like me and i dont like her.. my dad died of leukemia.. my grandfather died of desperation .. and my mother upped and left japan).

anyway .. short ver..(yeah right .. lol) my mother's discipline had no effect on me other than teaching me to lie and be sneaky to avoid the spatula.. my father's way still has effect on me .. his way of looking at things and deconstructing the situation are still ways i use to process problems.

but the thing is .. everyone is so different.. each person is a strange alchemistic blend of their own past experiences and those of their ancestors and influental ppl in their lives too.. and how each person evolves from this is also .. well.. theres no pattern to it.

my father.. even though he was beaten a LOT.. got more influence from the sensei he apprenticed with than from all the years with his parents.. and my mother .. who was treated like a princess turns out to be the doling hand..
there is no formula.

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Misty Harley

No, I'm not ignoring it. The system we have sucks and I know this, you know this, everyone know this. It needs a complete overhaul and sadly, I don't see it happening any time in the near future. I don't really know how better to word that.

The point is this:

The situation you spoke of, the boy who lit a HOUSE on fire that almost KILLED someone is what I am speaking of. I cannot and maybe this makes me a very cruel mother indeed, but I cannot allow that from my children. As much as I love them, I would NOT put them *in this type of situation* over unknown amount of peoples safety and *hope* that burning her hands would stop her from putting another person at risk. If it means calling the cops on my own child and turning them in, I will. And yes, I would do that BEFORE I burned their hands. If it boiled down to ME having to chose abusing my child or turning them over to the police because their actions are attempting to harm other people continued despite my best efforts, then so be it.

Would it be easy? Oh hell no. And I certainly hope that day never ever comes.

You may opt for something different. You may think this grandmother for doing her best with the circumstances she had. I don't because I am of the belief there is *always* something else that can be done that does not involve abusing a child. Maybe that is pollyanna of me, so be it. But remember, you withheld the information that she was indeed helped, even if it was not "social services."

However, with that knowledge finally given to us, I am *extremely* grateful that she and her grandson received the help they deserved and desperately needed no matter how they received it or where the help came from.

Surreal

And the abuse that the child will almost certainly endure once they've entered the system doesn't count.

You're opting for your safety, which is certainly understandable, but don't keep pretending that it's a non-abusive choice.

No, I think you fail at understanding that a decision is made with the information you have available at the time. (which is what I gave you)

Considering that it was a stroke of luck with odds similar to being struck by lightening that they got help, I don't see why you keep using it as an out.

Misty Harley

I'm not using it as an out, it would have been nice to know that she received help in the very beginning of your story. We said she needed to get help, that's uncalled for. You said none was...eh never mind...done rehashing the you said part, we can both read.

Two fold really as to why it's important that this child AND grandmother receive help:

1. Burning a pyromania's hand does not guarentee that they will stop. It's a sickness. Not something they can necessarily control. Very well would have just put him on the alert to not get caught and that puts innocent people at risk.

2. The grandmother has to live with the idea that she purposely caused harm to a child, no matter what the intention behind it was. I would think that would suck. In fact, having learned the hard the way that I cannot use any form of physical force against my child, it does suck.

And again, I do not think that abusing a child who, due to a sickness, put the lives at risk of others (if I remember right, forgive me if I'm wrong...not once but twice) is someone's final option. Ever.

What you fail to understand is, as a mother who loves her children very much, I would turn them in. *That* would be a viable option to me. Yes, they very well may be abused in the system then again, maybe they won't be. They very well may be forever stuck in it then again, maybe they won't be. At the same time, innocent lives will have been saved. Again, maybe that means I am cruel and that's fine.

Others may opt to protect the child from the system at all costs, including abusing them by their own hand. That may be their only solution as they see it. I disagree. I'm not sure where I'm losing you on this? It's really nothing more then "I disagree and here is why"

Surreal

Because you shift the conversation onto ground of your choosing most of the time rather than discuss the point presented.

But this is a dead horse and I for one am through beating it.

Siggy

haha that would be me - and I'm still damn happy my mother cracked me one when I was being a little shit!

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Summer

It was you, and now you need someone to take over that for you as an adult. = P

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Siggy

hahah oh I gots someone Only now that I'm older I deliberately act up so I can get me some of that action

Khamudy

Thanks Lucifer - I worked for around a year or so in Social Services with situations where children were at risk. 99% of the work never goes beyond those who need to know, so it is never seen that in the majority of cases it's actually about giving support to parents who are struggling. They don't see that it involves close work with medical, education, legal and law enforcement professionals. They also don't see that there are very serious cases where children are in situations where they are starved, beaten, burned, molested, neglected, treated as commodities, etc. and it is only the intervention of a social worker that pulls a child from a short, brutal and ultimately deadly life.

They aren't perfect - no service is and god knows there have been issues of malpractice - but for the short time I worked with them, I know that there are a good few kids who are in a better life now and that there are a good few families who with some extra support, have got things on track. And that's what's important.

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Carthalis

Completely agree with this and from my own perspective I've been to a number of multi-agency case conferences involving many of the services Khamudy mentions and many others. Many other meetings just involving social services and in particular those kids leaving care as we work together to find them a new home and put in place the right support to help them.

You'll be very lucky to find any service working in isolation especially in this country. Its just not feasible considering government legislation on partnership working. I also think its very beneficial in everyone working together.

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Roxanne Blue

AM also happy she cracked you one... but that leaves the rest of us... WTF did WE do to deserve this crap?...

I will no longer pretend I am any kind of "man" just to make your silly ass happy...

Did not fit the standard mold...

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Roxanne Blue... Baroness De Bitche

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CoyoteMomiji

wat?

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Slick closed until further notice.

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Silly Ol' Killy Dilly

Surreal

I just wish someone would point me to the thread that spawned that... I miss most of the drama.

I need entertaining while I DL mega-monster files from hell.!!

pass that popcorn!

Joshua Nightshade

Stroker Serpentine

Make mine air pop..trying to watch the waistline

Fox Stirling

Have you been drinking?

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Roxanne Blue

That's what I get for coming in during Act #....

Of course I've been drinking... not enough though...

anecdotal evidence of the "effectiveness" of physical punishment is NOT ... oh never mind that crap...

Some of us were not parted from the people striking us...
Some of us had to "be a man" even when we were NOT men or boys... ever!
And we do NOT thank them for the experience.

Asher Bertrand

OK but why attack Siggy?

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Chantal

I see the poll mostly changed the 'beat' to 'hit'.

But - still doesn't work for me.
First, is the 'hitting' regular, and is it a slap, swat, punch? (and what is regular, to start with?)
Second, is it as punishment for a specific act or because the parents are violent? (and where is the line there?)
Third, what the hell is 'softly'? Again, where's the line?

I don't believe in hitting kids... in general. But I've slapped my daughter ONCE. On the arm, when she was 7 or 8. But did that one slap turn me into a child-beater? No. But it means I can't put myself into the 'don't hit my kids' category.

Yes, it was effective. Was it 'soft'? Not sure, but it hurt my hand. She told me years later that she wondered if I ever would hit her (my approach was usually 'reasoning') and that she probably kept pushing me just to see how far she could go - partly because she knew that some of her friends DID get hit, slapped, whatever.

And yet. I was horrified that I HAD actually slapped her (even though - again - she'd deserved it in my opinion) that I never did it again even though there were times when it was tempting. She went off to swimming practice - with stripes on her arm - and I wondered if I'd find the police at my door if she'd started the 'my mother beats me' thing. In fact, she told me was upset and embarrassed more than anything, but yes, it could have got me into a LOT of trouble. These days, kids are very aware that they can defend themselves against 'child beating', which is a GOOD thing... but what actually constitutes a beating is, again, complex.

My own parents - I vaguely remember my mother slapping me a couple of times. But this was back in the stone ages. I think (could be wrong) that it was hardly a major issue in the UK then to smack your kids on the bottom, slap on the legs or arm, as a form of discipline. I certainly wasn't 'beaten', but I didn't think anything of it as my friends got the same treatment for particularly awful 'crimes'.

But what if I'd broken her arm? Knocked her over and she'd banged her head? What if I'd found it so effective I'd started doing it semi- regularly?

Such a complex subject. And not one that a little poll like this can even start to answer. The issue is worth discussion, yes. But I'm not rushing to check one of the boxes.

All this to say that there are so many permutations, possibilities, that it's not something you can cover in a poll like this.

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Noru Kyong

A pyromania? For crying out loud he is just a child. When I was a kid I used to be very figity and play with whatever I got my hands on, even lighters. Was it wrong? yes it was, but I didn't know any better. Would I do it now? No way!

Unless I'm missing something here, all the kid needs is to be taught that he shouldn't play with fire, not be turned in to the police and accused of being dangerous to society

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Fmeh

I used to be quite the little pyro when I was little, I enjoyed blowing things up with firecrackers. I got over it, and without having to be hit or really told anything.

But if you think about it, any kids that like fireworks are temporarily being like little pyros. Up until many cities banned fireworks, 4th of July was always pretty much Pyro Day.

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