Misty Harley

I'm sorry surreal, abusing a child in the way this grandmother did is never the only option. The grandmother was wrong. Plain and simple. In my book anyway. It may have FELT like her only option based on many different reasons, but it's still not the ONLY option.

First you state that there was no help avaiilable to her at the time then you state that social services WAS involved and then you state later that someone else stepped in and they did receive the help they needed. I'm glad for that, but now I ask how did someone KNOW to step in and offer the help was it because the burns were seen on the boys hands? Was it because the grandmother finally said something to someone and they in turn, searched out help for her?

Grandmother raising 3 grandchildren, one of whom is a 8-year old boy. As a bit of background, they are very poor, black, inner-city, and the parents are completely absent.

The boy has been setting fires. Most recently, a fire he set gutted one of the rooms in the house - at night while they were sleeping. The grandmother has tried pretty much everything she can think of and finally as a last resort, after the bedroom fire, deliberately burns the child's palms.

Opinion?

that's it, all the information we can go. And yet, we get nailed for "why didnt' the mother get help!"

then we get this:

I included the background so that you'd know that there were no external resources. No money for counseling, no overworked social worker available. Pretty much the grandmother's only option at this point would be to send the child to juvenile detention.

Consider this - the boy set fire to the house where an elderly woman and two younger children were asleep. They were unbelievably fortunate to escape with only one gutted room. (considering fire dept response times in inner cities)

At the time I heard about the situation, it had been several months with no more fires set - long-term, I don't know if it stuck.

I wouldn't advocate burning a child under normal circumstances, but I think in this situation, it may have been the only choice left that didn't involve a cage.

but really that's not the complete truth because then you go on to say this:

The family is on public assistance, so a social worker is already assigned. Considering how very overloaded urban social works are, this means very little attention.

Then we get the ending:

Now to the ending. My girlfriend contacted Jewish Family Services and got them involved. Her Mom, a child psychologist in private practice, counseled the family pro bono. I never saw the end of the story because I broke up with my girlfriend, but at last look, the family's situation was improving.

so I will just repeat my question. How did anyone know this family needed help?

Misty Harley

Life isn't about happy endings. I would still hope he and the grandmother BOTH would have received some sort of help. Because again, you and I would have no idea if that kid was still setting fires and if he was still a dangers to others. That grandmother also has so to live with what she did to the child out of fustration and not knowing where to turn. Horrible for both of them, there would have been no happy ending because even if that child did stop trying to catch things on fire, he also still has live with what his grandmother did to him.

I can't begin to live their life or the fears that they live with on a daily basis nor will I pretend to. I do know that horrible things happen in a moment of feeling defeat and just wanting a behavior to stop and not knowing where to turn to get help in getting said behavior to stop. I also know that abusing a child is wrong. For any reason.

Sansarya

I think something we fail to consider and certainly social services fails to consider is that different cultures have different ways of disciplining and teaching children. We seem to have the expectation that everyone is going to do things the American Way, as if it's the only way.

I've seen children removed from homes because their families used an old way of teaching (such as sending a young boy out of the house for a week to live outside, so he could learn to be self sufficient). I don't know the full situation with the grandmother in this case, but it's possible this was how she was taught to teach children about the dangers of fires.

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Surreal

I think the confusion is your assumption that being involved with social services equates with help. It doesn't. You are at the mercy of where you live and the quality of your case worker.

In a very odd and roundabout way. An author was writing a story on how the poorest of the poor survived and what strategies they used to make up the short fall in services. In the search for people to talk to, she was pointed to the pastor of a black inner-city church, and eventually got the grandmother's name from one of her neighbors.

The author eventually became intimate with the family and tapped into her network of friends. Her upper-middle class, afluent network of friends - not normally a resource for an elderly dirt-poor black woman.

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Bard Jameson

I think we can agree that not all hitting is abuse, and not all abuse is hitting. Sansarya's post made me remember something from my childhood, something I think would be described today as abuse.

When I was about 10 my friend and I thought it would be cool to steal a couple of my parent's cigarettes and hide in the yard and try to "smoke" them. Mom caught us, of course, and did a classic "wait 'till your father gets home" routine.

Dad's punishment was to take me into the bathroom, give me one of his Pall Mall's and "teach" me to smoke - the wrong way. He said to take the smoke into my mouth and then swallow - not inhale. As he knew it would, it made me violently ill after only a few tries and I vomited, promising never to smoke again. Was that abuse?

I never even considered smoking again until I was 18 and tried acid for the first time

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Surreal

I had a couple of half-siblings go through foster care and juvie. Based on their stories, I'd prefer 1st degree burns to the palms over being turned over to social services in several major cities.

My parents periodically threw me out after age 15. I was very careful to avoid coming to the attention of social services. Living on the street was a significant improvement over what could happen to you in juvie, group homes, or foster care.... and that was 30 years ago - it's gotten worse.

Misty Harley

Yep, never did state anything different other then say that you or I would have no idea how a social worker would react to the information upon receiving it. And that I still hold that sending a child to foster care would be better then burning a budding pyromania's hands in the hopes that it teaches him a lesson and others would be safe from his already failed attempts of setting homes on fire.

You feel differently and assume alot it seems.

Surreal

Actually, I was very clear that no help was available. I later expanded with the information that the grandmother had appealed to her social worker, so yes... I do know. I can write a novella with every detail, but my sense is that you want to give the system an out and put the burden completely on the grandmother.

So sending a child off to be physically, sexually and/or emotionally abused and neglected for 10 years is better than 1st degree burns to the palms.

Let me be clear, while I don't condone the grandmother's actions, I do sympathize with her desperation. Her fears about the social services system were realistic and her extreme reluctance to send a child she loved into that hell justified.

Did she turn over every possible stone in her search for help? I don't know. Do we hold her to a higher standard than those blessed with money, energy and time? Her everyday existence is the labor of Sisyphus.

Misty Harley

actually you did condone her actions and said it was acceptable:

I wouldn't advocate burning a child under normal circumstances, but I think in this situation, it may have been the only choice left that didn't involve a cage.

I had a couple of half-siblings go through foster care and juvie. Based on their stories, I'd prefer 1st degree burns to the palms over being turned over to social services in several major cities.

Unless of course, I am misunderstanding you.

And yes, as someone who already felt the wrath of Social Services and knew that if a diagnosis on my child was not completed, that I would very well lose her. Along with being a child who fell between the cracks in her youth, if all my attempts at parenting failed her, I would turn her over and what happened, happened. Especially if it meant saving the lives of others. I could not live with myself knowing I was harboring a person-even my own child-who could potentially destroy so lives of others. Yes, I realize that is rather cold, but I have never held the belief that I am the end all be all of parenting with forbid my child takes on actions and habits that could not only ruin herself and others...then I need to seek help. Even if it means bringing in Social Services and hoping for the best yet realizing, it may be the worst.

And oh yes..I do hold her to a higher standard of those blessed with money, energy and time. She should have been the God of all Grandmothers and never have had to face this during her life. *end sarcasm* Please..get real. I disagree with her final outcome of choice. That's all. I do not think it's *ever* acceptable to abuse a child.

CoyoteMomiji

Social services in the US?

Do you really want me to get started?

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Surreal

You are misunderstanding. There is a great difference between saying something is right and appropriate and saying that someone may have not had any other choice.

And yes, given the choice between a quick burn by someone who didn't make a habit out of it and otherwise was trying to do their best for me and the indifference and abuse of a system that is very reluctant to let you go once they have you.. well yeah, two suck ass choices, I'll take what's behind door #1 please.

Doesn't mean that I think it's right.

You continue to ignore the real problem here. That our system is so very broken that it drives people to desperation. That our population supports and condones this system... unless the victims are cute and young and somehow come to the attention of someone important.

But it's OK to turn a child over to strangers to abuse.

Surreal

Only as you are willing to share and it doesn't make you homicidal

CoyoteMomiji

That's not a very long post, Surreal.

Basically, it's this-

If you think that calling DCFS/CPS is the way to go, make sure you understand that they frequently care less about making things genuinely better than making things adhere to standards set by a middle class increasingly disconnected from humanity.

They frequently impose increased financial burdens on people who can't afford it, make demands that are completely unreasonable (how many people with financial issues are likely to be able to afford weekly therapy sessions?), and actively slander their "clients". Meanwhile, good foster parents burn out with stunning regularity (largely due to failed promises by DCFS caseworkers) while the bad ones take on as many kids as possible in order to maximize profit.

I'm one of the lucky ones - it only took me about a year and a quarter after my ex abandoned the girls to get Meghan back, and my other daughter is receiving care far beyond what most people would believe possible. But even Meghan had her bad time; after the first foster mother burned out, the girls were separated. Meghan went to a dominionist woman who had seven(!) other foster kids, all male, ranging in age from 3 months to 17 years, most of whom were in foster care for reasons like sexual abuse.

Medea bounced around from foster home to foster home. Right after she left her first foster mother's house, she was turned over to a woman who kept her tied to a chair for 90% of her waking time. For a month. She did not take Medea to her therapy sessions, did not take her to get her shots, and ignored her until the caseworker FINALLY went by and found that she was bound. This woman did not accept my calls, either.

While this was going on, I would go for days without information, calling DCFS workers frantically trying to find out where my children were, trying to find out what the hell was going on. They were frequently verbally abusive, asking me things like "why do you care?"

When I asked that Meghan be placed with a family that would respect my desire for her to not be indoctrinated in any religion (because the tone of her voice when she said "I will pray for you, Mommy" at the prompting of her foster mother was HEARTBREAKING), I was told that I should be thankful my daughter was in a house with morals. An ex of mine was asked flat-out if I was a Satanist. Medea was described as being named after "a barbarian witch" by the same woman.

Medea's foster mother now? Perfect saint, as is her husband - they are taking legal guardianship of Medea, with my blessing and encouragement, because she's bonded with them and they have the resources I simply do not have to care for her and get her the treatment and intervention she needs. She said Saturday that Medea simply has two mothers, now, rather than one. And it makes me very, very happy.

But I am a /very/ rare case. I had a lawyer who believed in me, and a sympathetic judge hearing my case who was unwilling to tolerate the violations of law and her orders that DCFS workers continually committed. Most of the people I saw come in and out of Department 426 weren't so fortunate, and I saw many, many people break down when their kids were taken away.

People slip through the cracks, they're ignored by the workers who are supposedly there to help them, given tasks that would make Sisyphus say "oh, HELL no", and then lose their kids when they finally cannot keep playing with the deck stacked against them. The system itself is simultaneously both underfunded and profitable, and it's a monster that eats families alive.

So, before you point fingers at the people in the system - take a long, hard look at the system they're trapped within, and decide if, possibly, they need genuine help, rather than condemnation.

eku Zhong

maybe i am not qualified to answer.. but
i think those kids running amok at supermarkets etc are probably smacked at home
they know the parent wont hit them in public so push the boundaries and act out.

my mother had a habit of smacking me with a wooden spatula
my father used reason
i respected and listened to my father..

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Surreal

Correct me if I'm wrong, but you were dealing with California too - a state which has comparatively higher social spending and a somewhat more liberal attitude.

Vivianne Draper

no i'm not thankful at all that my evil stepfather beat the living shit out of me and left scars and scabs for even the most minor of infractions

summer i adore you but this is a fucked up poll and a fucked up question

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CoyoteMomiji

We /had/ higher social spending. Unfortunately, our entire economy's in the shitter and the budget is gone. So when you think of DCFS workers, include the fact that not only are they overworked and stressed by what they see, but by the possibility of losing their jobs, especially if they aren't "productive" enough.

Mocksoup Graves

A swat on the bottom for a dangerous situation after being told repeatedly to stop the behavior? I have no problem with that.

A smack across the face, a punch, a hair pull, a burn, an implement... I have a problem with that.

Children learn best by example. Act the way you want your children to act. Say thank you often, even when you don't have to. Apologize for rudeness if you want to teach your children to be polite, and expect the same from them. If you don't want them cursing, then don't swear and correct yourself if you slip up.

This does not apply in the case of mental illness in children. A real mental illness, not just "Johnny doesn't do his homework" I mean early onset bipolar, schizophrenia, Borderline Personality Disorder. Traditional parenting does not work in those cases, and getting help in an already taxed system is nearly impossible. I feel for everyone who feels trapped like that.

We all do the best we can with what we have. Strive to do better, accept your mistakes and your limitations. A hug is more effective than a bruise.

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Surreal

Amen to this.

CoyoteMomiji

I cannot overemphasize how lucky I am to have found Medea's foster mother, R. She's truly an amazing woman and the fact that she wanted to adopt/take legal guardianship of Medea makes me thankful every single day.

But she's a rarity in a system that's overstrained to breaking, and in many cases, overstrained because it's frequently the first resort to take kids away, not the last.

Brenda Archer

Too many parents don't care at all about what's going through the child's head and only react to punish external behavior.

It's quite possible for a child to behave badly when he's being abused by one adult, and then for yet another adult to punish him severely because of the acting out.

The only way to break this cycle is to be involved in the life of the child so that if the child is being abused, it is stopped.

Honestly my impression is that many parents are completely lazy and disinterested and are more interested in suppressing their children than training them.

I can't approve of hitting in the cultural environment we have, although I'm sure that sometimes good parents have good reason to spank.

But there's just too much abuse. And it goes on and on from one generation to the next, at a huge cost to society. We think nothing of driving one another insane.

Summer

It's not a fucked up poll when you see people in other threads championing being hit as a child. I was just taking temperature of popular opinion.

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Envoy Costagravas

If it was a serious attempt as a social thermometer, you might have tried for a more benign wording of the poll. I'm willing to bet the presentation upset people, moreso than just the idea of the poll in the first place. Just a hunch.

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Summer

It's in ZOMGWTFBBQ, it wasn't meant to solve a huge social problem, just poke at those who treat it so lightly.

Envoy Costagravas

Well, I guess this confirms the confusing nature of the thread.