Surreal

I'm curious - what country do you live in?

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Hypatia Callisto

It's just a language difference, nothing more. That's how they term it in UK.

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"To begin with," said the Cat, "a dog's not mad. You grant that?"

"I suppose so," said Alice.

"Well, then," the Cat went on, "you see, a dog growls when it's angry, and wags its tail when it's pleased. Now I growl when I'm pleased, and wag my tail when I'm angry. Therefore I'm mad."

"I call it purring, not growling," said Alice.

"Call it what you like," said the Cat.

Lucifer Baphomet

One more thing needing a major overhaul over there then...

Healthcare, Social Work....

Jesus..

The place sounds totally screwed up.

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Surreal

Not a contradiction, just poor phrasing. Sorry, but trying to burn down the house doesn't get you to the top of the priority pile.

Surreal

My girlfriend was doing a summer intern stint for her Masters in Social Work which is how I became familiar with this family's story.

I'm glad that you focused on the real problem here - a system so broken that otherwise good people are driven to desperate acts.

Surreal

It's more than a language difference, it's an attitude towards people and community. Our system is fucked up because the underlying social attitudes are fucked up.

I deliberately chose a shocking story to illustrate this.

Misty Harley

I dunno Surreal, I've heard of kids in inner city's being helped for a lot less-sometimes removed from their home and sometimes not. Granted it's stories from NYC and Syracuse, maybe that had something to do with it.

Yes, our social system needs serious help and our social workers are over burdened and sometimes they go in with their own prejudices but they are not ALL that bad. If they had social services helping them to begin with..was there some other reason the g'mother didn't want to utilize their services beyond what was already being extended to the family?

Lucifer Baphomet

Now I see where you were going with this Surreal.

This whole scenario is absolutely atrocious.

Hypatia Callisto

That may be true, but British English speakers just don't say it that way, when a child goes into the social services system. Nobody in the UK would say "custody" instead of "care". I don't think it meant that Lucifer didn't understand it from his word choice, it's just how people speak there.

I get to hear various dialects of English a lot, actually these days I hear more "British" usage than American IRL, despite my being raised in the US.

Lucifer Baphomet

Social work is on a state by state basis over there, if I'm not mistaken, So I can see some states being that bad, and others better.

Surreal.... what state was this in?

Surreal

Social services for the most part are delivered on a state and local level so the quality varies widely depending on locale.

And yes, in many cities, our social services are just that bad. It takes children dying "under care" for it to hit the public awareness usually.

Surreal

Louisiana.

Misty Harley

Yep it does and the story may very well turn around and still have social services blamed because that child goes forth and sets a fire and kills someone.

Note one of the first things people did was jump down the "WHERE WAS SOCIAL SERVICES WHEN THIS HAPPENED?!" before you clarified that indeed social service was involved-just never informed of the issue, contrary to earlier confusion that they were not involved at all. It's a no win situation.

Social Services will be blamed either way you look at it.

Pussycat Catnap

I kind of live in a personal sense of terror over the idea of ever hitting my children once I have them - having faced beatings with metal studded belts as a child; though often not connected to any punishment or discipline.

That feeling is strong enough in me to make me emotionally flinch at even the idea of a 'swat' even if mentally I can see the difference.

Verbal and other forms of abuse can also be pretty damaging when carried to excess.

Surreal

There was a happy ending to this story which I've held off telling because I wanted to see how people responded. More in a moment.
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Misty - I'm assuming you're an American, probably middle-class and have never tried to use the social safety net. I say that because you seem to believe that asking for help results in help.

Also, because you focused on the grandmother as a bad person rather than a desperate person. A very American attitude, where the individual is all and if you're poor, it's because you're stupid, lazy, poor moral character, etc.

We've seen this before in discussions around health insurance where some of the posters really believe that the safety net works, despite the 1 million people driven to financial ruin each year.

Lucifer on the other hand went after the system in his first post, even though, as I understand it ... if you ask for help in Britain, you actually get it... and basics like housing, food and health care are pretty much available to anyone.

I think our problems in the US are twofold - 1/2 ignorance of how things really work and the other part the cult of the individual.
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Now to the ending. My girlfriend contacted Jewish Family Services and got them involved. Her Mom, a child psychologist in private practice, counseled the family pro bono. I never saw the end of the story because I broke up with my girlfriend, but at last look, the family's situation was improving.

Bottom line... your survival shouldn't rely on the kindness of chance-met strangers.

Surreal

I should have clarified that although the family was on the social services list, they might as well not have been because essentially no services were available.

And my indictment is actually of the underlying society. I've known a number of social workers and it amazes me that anyone would go into such a thankless and stressful profession in the US.

Hypatia Callisto

Well, that says it all

But I think racism and plain old prejudice is still alive and well in the US south, I wouldn't read so much "individualism" into that.

Misty Harley

I'm ashamed to admit that I was even sucked into this thread then since you purposely left out information, gave mis information and made it sound as if the grandmother and boy were still floundering around without any form of assistance with a very real issue that could lead to taking the life of others.

When in reality what happened is the grandmother or someone outside of the family saw what happened and seeked out the help this family needed.

Sit back and relax, this is gonna take a bit of your time.

In 1980 my step brother was put away for sexually abusing me while I was sent off to weekly evaluation by local Social Services (state undisclosed but it was west coast). I was to be removed from the family and other continueing abuse but my father had pull and that never happened. Step brother was taken from Juvie and put in his fathers home. Case Closed. Fast forward a few years later and he's brought back into the family fold, abuse continues from him along with abuse from my step mother.

In Highschool, 1988 or there-about , my friend was removed at request of her mother due to being uncontrollable and placed in a foster home. Therapy occured on all fronts and eventually she returned home and all ended well.

A few years back 1999/2000, my oldest daughter ended up getting very sick and social services had to investigate us because at the time she was undiagnosed with LCH bone involvment in the neck and the only other way to get this type of "injury" was to slam a child down into a sit position. We were in a hospital room with her and not allowed to leave the floor with her and were being monitered constantly while she was being interviewed as were we. The diagnosis was given and the interviews stopped. There is nothing like being accused of abusing your child to bring a parent down to their knees and question everything and anyone who ever came into contact with their child, including your own spouse.

So yes, I have had more then my share of dealing with Social Services. and no, I'm not inner city and yes, I suppose you can call me 'middle class' and yes, I am an American.

Yes, I do hold that you cannot recieve help unless you ask for and yes, I do think asking for help even if the most dire of circumstances may occur is better then abusing a child. Obviously SOMEONE else thought the same because this family WAS helped and I certiantly hope the grandmother was as well becuase there is *never* a reason to abuse a child the way she did.

Beezle Warburton

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Hypatia Callisto

I have to agree. But I think that the fear of abuse in a state like Louisiana, where racism is still pretty much endemic, can lead people to making deeply unfortunate choices. I am glad it had a happy ending though.

That sounds like a horror what you went through, Misty *hug*

Beezle Warburton

I don't have kids.

Other people's kids need to be smacked more often. And usually the parents as well.

Misty Harley

There is really a fear no matter where you go. Of either getting in trouble, having your child removed, thinking your right and everyone else is wrong. Racial descrimination, monetary descrimination, going up against authority to help protect the children fear (as was in my case as a child).

And by no means and I am saying that this isn't a *real* fear and maybe I'm too close to even bother commenting as a child who fell between the cracks due to one of those fears. But I also think people need to learn to overcome those fears even if retribution paid for it is dear. Otherwise, nothing will change. Ever. Being investigated was by far one of the more horrible experiences in my life. We were basically charged guilty at first sight due to the collapsed neck bone which was being viewed as a crushed neck bone. The lady giving the MRI said "How could a mother do that to her child...." and yet we were allowed to drive our daughter 3 hours south to the hospital that was going to admit her. When we got there, they were ready to send the cops after us because it took us a bit longer since we had to stop off at home and the MRI place said that was ok (side note: but what if we DID abuse her? dumb move on their behalf)

Even more so because I had to give family history, which included being abused as a child (for the record, that never works FOR you in these cases).

I too am glad that this family received the help they needed. I just think Surreal went about this the wrong way. Would have been nice to know that someone HAD gotten them the help they needed and that child was not left floundering all on his own or the grandmother was left to deal with her abuse on her own. There just is no reason to abuse a child. Ever.

Surreal

For the purposes of this thread, the ending is not important. At the time of the incident, there was no help to be had. At the moment of decision, the grandmother felt that burning the child's hand was her only option.

Hindsight is easy.

Sheer good luck and having nothing to do with the grandmother's resources or social services.

Hypatia Callisto

While I agree with you, I think you really have to think about a grandmother who is black, who probably has dealt most of her life living in mortal fear of the authorities.

Things are a lot better now, but they weren't always, and I know from my own experience with my grandmother who went through full blown civil war in Ireland, that the memories of state abuse are not easily erased. She probably did need psychological counselling.

Surreal

People like closure and they really like happy endings. But as I said, I'm focused on the moment of decision. What were the grandmother's resources at that moment.

Hindsight is easy.

Would your feelings about the decision be different if they hadn't gotten help? What if 5 years later, the child was doing pretty well without any outside intervention?