Walker

I remember saying to my mother in front of her friend once, "mum, you haven't hit me today!" like it was the most awesome achievement ever. She blushed, and probably got the message right then that hitting me several times a day even for the most trivial thing was not acceptable behaviour. I felt terrorized by the threat of being hit by my father for a while, but that all ended when he did hit me and I punched him back and ran away to London listening to Jimmy Somerville's Smalltown Boy on my Walkman. (Well, if you're gonna run away from home, you might as well ham it up with some value added drama.)

Anyway, I'm sure smacking your kids can be beneficial if you're a good parent. The problem is that there are so many bad ones who don't know where to draw the line, that I'm reluctant to say "yeah, it's fine". Generally speaking.

Walker

Oh yeah, I just remembered: my great-grandfather didn't believe in smacking his kids. He used to line them up (eight of them) in the back yard and threaten to shoot them with a gun he came out of the army with. (Being a POW during WWI sent him extremely nuts.)

Misty Harley

or it just taught him to go back to small potato's and he's still setting fire to things just not getting caught. That's a case I would have called in for help, even if it meant "sending him away." I'm sorry, but that's just over the line and sometimes things are beyond parental control and outside help is needed. This is one of those times. What that woman did was horrible and there's no excuse for it. None.

Lewis Luminos

No, I don't think it made the slightest bit of difference. I don't think it harmed me either (it wasn't abusive beating, just a smack now and again. All it really did was teach me to not get caught.)

No. I don't believe that it does any good.

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Lucifer Baphomet

There should have been social work involvement though.

The system failed this family, and drove this woman to unreasonable measures, in my opinion.

Or maybe I'm just spoiled by living in a country that actually tries to provide for people in situations like that?

I dunno

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Misty Harley

system didn't fail it if the system didn't know it was happening. Unless I am mistaken and maybe Surreal can verify...the grandmother never sought outside help and chose to handle it herself. They can't help what they don't know is happening.

Lucifer Baphomet

I would have assumed fire investigaters would have assertained it was arson, and reffered the boy to either the criminal justice system, or social work.

If they didn't was the grandmother covering up for him?

Siyu Suen

I think in the end where I stand on it is that as long as its done with a cool head and sound judgment (never purely out of anger), physical punishment can be incredibly effective and lasting. It should be a last or near to last resort after other avenues have been exhausted.

Of course all kids can and will be difficult, I'm not saying one type of kid deserves a worse punishment than others, just that they will be more or less effective depending on the kid. My guy was the sort when he was little that just didn't give a flip about pain. If he had been punished with the sort of swat or slap I was given, I doubt he even would have noticed. His parents hit him and whupped him with a belt, punched him, none of it did anything... but restraint and quiet time worked instantly. I responded okay to quiet time if I was being punished for something I didn't really care about, but if I wanted something bad enough, no matter the danger, I'd go for it. I was a cocky little minx and I didn't think there could be an evil in the world to scare me. A little physical pain made me re-evaluate how much I wanted it.

We both had different tolerances and preferences, and just like you wouldn't buy the same birthday gift for everyone, you can't punish everyone the same way.


I'm very close to my mother, I love her dearly and see her often, and I think she did a great job with both of us. I really admire that she was able to take on both my brother and I with such varying approaches and raise two well-adjusted adults who are independent and well mannered. Is it possible she might have found another way to punish me for my indiscretions? Maybe, I can't rule everything out. But, it did work, and I feel it left no lasting damage on me.

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I'm attempting to bring about the end of the world to usher in a new era of mask wielding overlords. This is how!

Hypatia Callisto

My mother never hit us, and she did a pretty good job. Her Catholic guilt trips were far more effective than hitting

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"To begin with," said the Cat, "a dog's not mad. You grant that?"

"I suppose so," said Alice.

"Well, then," the Cat went on, "you see, a dog growls when it's angry, and wags its tail when it's pleased. Now I growl when I'm pleased, and wag my tail when I'm angry. Therefore I'm mad."

"I call it purring, not growling," said Alice.

"Call it what you like," said the Cat.

Siobhan OFlynn

My Catholic mother used to threaten our lives in church if we so much as yawned. She was notorious for carrying out her threats, too. If she said you were gonna get it when we got home, she meant it.

She even made us go to our bedrooms and bring her the hairbrush she was going to beat our asses with.

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Surreal

You talk as if there is help to be had.

Are you familiar with the US foster care or juvenile system? Trust me, you don't want to be... it's a nightmare. Whatever the child's problems are going in, they would be more severe upon release.

Certainly institutionalizing the child would protect the safety of the grandmother and other children.

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Siyu Suen

And there swings open the door to a whole 'nother kind of abuse

Lucifer Baphomet

So rather than risking the child going into care, which wouldn't be a certainty... she burns his hands?

She needs to be up on criminal charges.

That's child abuse.

Misty Harley

We don't know if the child would have been taken away if the grandmother would have seeked help for the fire starter prior to escalating. For all we know, he may have received mental health assistance that is clearly needed.

But yes, this may sound horribly cruel but if it meant saving an unknown number of lives due to this child's urges to light fires versus him being placed in an institute then so be it. If the grandmother is wrong and that child is still setting fires and only learned to be more sneaky and careful, then others could be harmed or die as he gets older and bolder.

Hypatia Callisto

Mine made me stare at the wall and think about it for a certain amount of time.

Actually, people marvelled how well behaved us kids were in public - we would go out to fancy restaurants even as young kids without any problems. One of her threats would be leaving us at home (with Grandma) if we didn't behave out in public. Grandma couldn't cook.

My grandmother, who was even more Catholic (she should have become a nun) was pretty similar. They were experts in psychological corrections

So yeah, I don't think you *have* to hit your kids, though a swat probably doesn't do any harm, I just don't think it teaches anything either.

Surreal

The family is on public assistance, so a social worker is already assigned. Considering how very overloaded urban social works are, this means very little attention.

I don't know where you live, but in the US, a poor, inner-city black has every reason to fear the system... it grinds people up more than it helps.

Fire investigators? I sincerely doubt that anything happened past the fire being extinguished. And it's doubtful that the police would act if they were notified.

Ayumi

Asian parents are pretty notorious for physical discipline. Its not that bad with girls, but really bad with boys.

Its not abuse though, and I think the concept of "abuse" when it comes to disciplining children is kind of a western thing. In Asian culture.. it just sorta.. is. Kyllie or Eku might be able to elaborate on it a bit better.. because I have a hard time.. explaining it I guess.

Its just sorta the way things are, and so children maybe dont take it the same way. *shrug*

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Lucifer Baphomet

I didn't realise you had a hairy arse

Misty Harley

I remember being sent to the corner as a child. Then that stopped after my brother peeled all the wall paper off the wall.

Hypatia Callisto

We wouldn't dare do that. The guilt would be pounded in for years!

Isabeau Imako

(sorry if I told this story before)

My brother and I had a code we used knocking on the wall
between our bedrooms.
One knock = No
Two = Yes
Three = Come to my room, etc

So, one night, he knocks 3 times.
I answer no, you come to my room, (1 tap, pause, 3 taps).
He answers, no, you come to my room.
This goes on for a while, until I finally agree and go to my
brother's room.
We then we hear my heavy-set mom coming down the hall.
I almost sh*t myself I was so scared, so my brother goes,
"Quick! Hide behind the door!"
I do so just as the door opens and my mom goes over and
hits my brother a few times.
"I told you to go to sleep!" she says, then proceeds to go to
my room. I'm crying at this point - what do I do now?
"Quick!" my brother says, "Go to the bathroom, and pretend
you were there."
Of course, when I come out of his room, she's standing there,
ten feet tall in my eyes, and hits me while I'm running,
trying to get back to my room.

There's no moral to this story, except that to this day, I'm all
at my brother when he brings it up, and he's all .

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Aaachou!

Siobhan OFlynn

You're right, Surreal. As I typed that I thought the kid needed professional help, I realized at the same exact moment that he wouldn't get it from our shitty system.

I don't know that burning his hands is the right thing to do, but desperate times call for desperate measures in some cases.

I know parents who've given up on trying to get help for their kids problems. Psychologists, psychiatrists, etc....they all cost money and none of it is covered by private insurance or government funding. Some people live with children who are ticking time bombs, teenagers one tantrum away from killing their whole families. Remember this awful story? Bianca Revelus, Birthday Girl, Decapitated By Her Brother In Gruesome Rampage The perp in that case wasn't a teenager anymore, but I suspect he was a pretty scary teen to live with.

Misty Harley

Sorry Surreal, I'm probably just going to have to agree to disagree on this. No matter what, the grandmother was wrong and that child's actions should have been reported to the social worker for further evaluation. The grandmother had absolutely no right to use Pyromania as a reason to burn his hands to teach him a lesson. Especially considering it most likely did not stop him from setting fires and simply made him go "underground" with it. Like I said, this is one of those cases that yes....I think grandmother should have gotten social involved even if it meant sending him away into the system of which we have no idea if that would have happened or not. He very well may grow up to continue setting fires and that's a scary thought indeed. Even within the system he might, no doubt about that. But dang...I dunno....it's just something you and I will most likely continue to disagree on.

Surreal

The way you phrase it "care" tells me that you have no idea how the US system works for the poor inner-city black. More accurately you could call it custody.

FYI, she did tell the social worker and nothing happened. But the other outcome could have been that the child was taken into foster care... where he had a very high chance of being beaten, raped and emotionally abused.

Lucifer Baphomet

This statement contradicts the following one.

Sounds to me like the Grandmother wasn't actually utilising the social worker made available to her.

Social workers EVERYWHERE have overloaded work quotas...

But they prioritise cases based on the elements involved in individual cases.

I'd hazard that this boys behaviour if it wasnt a priority before (and it should have been) would be a priority now if they were actually aware of all the facts.

Yes... I know that you're going to say things are "so much worse" in America.... and I'll agree that social programs in the USA need better funding and support.... but to me, theres something seriously off with this whole story.