Lum Lumley

Ace, your post is 99.9% correct, but I have to beg to differ on one key point:

John Norman is never right, ever.

Brenda Connolly

You mean he didn't say "I'm going to write a bunch of crappy pulp novels meant to be satire, that a lot of peolpe are going to turn into some silly cult because they can't distinguish fantasy from reality" ?

Lum Lumley

Given that a good portion of the Gor novels descend, Ayn Rand-like, into diatribes over his personal quibbles with modern society, probably not.

Joshua Nightshade

I don't believe it was meant as satire at all.

Io Zeno

Just fodder for it.

He didn't start out that bad but by the end it was like reading very boring, mild D/s material for preteens.

Brenda Connolly

Oh come on, you can't mean people actually believe in that dreck....Oh wait.....that is what we are saying isn't it? Never mind.

Sooz Pascale

I think Ace raises a series of interesting and valid points, some of which I agree with, some of which I don't. The problem is we are all different people and we all have different expectations in both RL and SL. There is no "right" or "wrong" answer to this, just a multitude of shades.

It would be NICE if everyone could do as I do, as Beebo does, and take everyone at face value [e.g. if someone has a purple horse, AV, then they are a purple horse]. That does not happen though. I also think, along with Ace, that if you REALLY expect another persons' AV to match up with their RL situation, then they should say so at some point. That is not going to happen either.

When I started SL, I just wanted to pass and be treated as a woman. That's all. I don't usually pass in RL, even on a good day. I do ok but I don't fool a lot of people. In SL I could.

I often envy those of you are using cross gendered AVs for whatever reason. Life seems simpler that way to a point. At one point, I decided to be honest about who and what I am and I live with it. This way I don't have the near constant fear of being "found out" and THAT is a relief.

I don't like being looked upon in disgust any more than anyone else does. However, I don't feel that friends and other people who accept me as a woman and as a friend but due to my RL don't find me attractive as "patronizing." I'm sure that does happen to some, but I don't believe it has happened to me.

I went through a long and lonely time trying to find a romantic partner with whom I could share SL. I kept striking out but kept trying, only to strike out again and again again. It was some really nice escorts who saved me and kept me from going insane. If I paid someone enough, they would spend the evening with me, dancing, listening to music, going places and pretending to be interested in me. I'm not ashamed of that [much]. I paid for their services and most were good enough actors that it was worth it. I didn't even have sex with most of them. It wasn't about sex, it was about companionship.

I'm basically glad that I chose the honesty approach, despite my envy of those who have perfectly good reasons to not disclose these very personal details.

I found someone who, not only accepts me for what I am, but delights in it. She was so worth the wait!!!!! Its so odd....I always viewed my tgism as a fault or burden, something that made me way less attractive than I would be otherwise. I was surprised when I found someone who thought it was a plus.

Question: Let's assume some one is very handicapped or disabled in RL. Does he or she have an obligation to navicate through SL in a wheelchair or crutches? Does he or she have an obligation to tell those who are close friends or potential romantic partners?

I think not. It would make zero difference to me.

Sooz

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Ceres Eilde

Um. Well. I am a bi woman IRL, and I have a gay male alt. He's only ever had sex a couple times, though. I play him because I am genuinely interested in the experience of being male, and letting that side of me come out.

I am not transgendered. I like being female. I just want to be male as well. If I could switch back and forth between genders IRL, I'd be different every week.

This whole thread is hitting home for me, because boy-me is not out as biologically female IRL, and has a crush on another gay man in SL (who, just to complicate things, is a friend of girl-me). Boy-me was going to come clean on the crush, but not gender. Now I'm worried that he shouldn't say anything at all.

It's very strange having these personas. Girl-me is bi, leaning toward lesbian. Boy-me is 100% gay and would never want to have sex with a girl. These are very real feelings for both of them.

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Except about house plants...

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Sooz Pascale

Possibly you could discuss it withthe gay man crushee in abstract terms? Like, "I was reading a forum discussion on cross gendered AVs...and I'm just curious...doesn't really matter to me one way or another....but in RL are you male of female?"

Alternatively, you could take a look at a seven foor tall Blingtard Barbie Boobzilla and say, "Ill bet you anything that she's a he."

Then see what his reaction is.

Sooz

Solanghe Sarlo

Sooz, I was completely with you until this statement. I'm fairly certain you're not comparing being physically disabled and in a wheelchair to being transgendered. I don't consider being TG a disability and no one I know does.

I'm sure there are plenty of people who also wouldn't care a wit if the person they're attracted to is in a wheelchair because their legs don't work or whatever. I sure wouldn't.

But these same people might indeed care if that person presented as one sex/gender and didn't share that they were in fact not. If there's no disclosure, the other person isn't allowed to make an informed decision about the level of involvement they want to have. I honestly don't understand the comparison; I'd welcome some enlightenment though.

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Solanghe Sarlo

By up front you mean like in a profile Ash? I did have something like that in my profile until just today when I erased it. As I'm seeing someone fairly exclusively now I don't feel the need for it to be there at the moment. But it said something like "RL heterosexual men pretending to be lesbian move on".

But you know the funny thing is, my trying to be up front also encouraged a lot of snippy comments from the same people I was trying to be up front with. I got IM's that said, "Oh you're probably a guy yourself" and stuff like that.

And unfortunately, people don't seem to read profiles. Why??

Colette Meiji

Wow this thread is old.

I thought the

"You don't have to date anyone you don't want to"

Pretty much settled it.

--------------

If one of your criteria is "I don't want to date RL Red-heads" .. Oh well then RL Red-heads can go date someone else.

They shouldn't lie, pretend they aren't a RL Red-head and date you anyhow.

Ceres Eilde

*raises hand*

That was me. My 15 minutes of net.fame.

Asher Bertrand

Congrats on the new relationship, Solanghe =)

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Solanghe Sarlo

Aw thanks. It's funny how things fall into your lap when you're not paying attention. :-)

Ranma Tardis

I understand the thread and understand why people would be so turned off by some genders. Why Solanghe Sarlo would be so turned off to pixel banging a RL male pretending to be a RL lesbian.

I will point out that men who disclose might as well have a male avatar. Most famous is Torley Linden. (I use to work for him as a mentor) He played a female avatar but disclosed. No one took him as thus so it was a wasted point. He seems to be 100 percent male now. It is a indication about a possible Disney Second Life.

Solanghe you do not have to worry about me. From my experience with Second Life have discovered what I thought all along. I am not a lesbian and not Bi. I will not visit those islands.

I have posted the not a lesbian in my profile

Trout Recreant

I wish this were the case for me. I have some really kick-ass fantasies. My reality sort of blows by comparison. If I couldn't distinguish between the two, I'd have a much more interesting life. But, since I can, I'm stuck with my rotten reality.

Sooz Pascale

Good grief Nooooooooooooooo!!!!!

I was trying to explore what the limits to the "honesty" thing are to some people. For myself I could not care a whit if a person is disabled in RL, aside from feeling bad for that person and wishing it weren't so. Do you agree with me that some people WOULD care?

Congrats on your new relationship.

You completely misinterpreted the point I was trying to make using a disabled person as an example. I no doubt expressed it poorly.

Sooz

Solanghe Sarlo

Yes I agree some people would care.

Thanks. Congrats on yours too!

I'm sorry for misunderstanding. I read it a couple of times but it's pretty late and I'm feeling all hypersensitive tonight. Not a good combo.

Jacelyn Branner

Congrats on the new relationship, good to see that some good came your way.

Willow Matthews

People I know that are TG kind of do interpret it as a disability at first. I'm probably expressing this badly, But I know what Sooz means with that comparison.

To me Sooz is a woman, to Sooz when I met her she knew that too, but there were many times when she felt others saw her than less than she was. She's been through enough to know that that can be true.

It may not be being "disabled", but it sure makes a woman feel bound like she (or in other cases he) might as well be disabled for all the freedom just to "be" that they yearn for and don't get like others they see each day manage to have just because they were born that way.

Yeah, I know Sooz is a woman, but many don't at first glance, some don't get that even after having been told, and if that happened to me? Let me tell you, I'd hurt too.

By the way Sooz, I'm so very glad you have found someone special. You give her a smooch for me and tell her I look forward to meeting you both some day soon(ish)

Sooz Pascale

You just made me cry Wills. You have NO IDEA how much your friendship and support mean to me.

I can't express it.

I love you my friend!!!

Sooz

Willow Matthews

Oh Sooz.

I feel like I'm teaching my big sister how wonderful she is. Don't worry, my RL big sister doesn't get it yet either, I must be doing it wrong

Parker McTeague

That is a great way to put it. Everyone has a different way of seeing gender in SL vs. RL. And assumptions, or even worse, deception, will make trouble. Don't assume your expectations are known or shared by the other person, or that their RL gender will match. As Ace mentioned, best you can do is make your expectations known if you have issues about RL gender not matching, and hope that people will be honest.

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