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Old 02-19-2010, 09:39 PM   #176 (permalink)
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Go with the first instincts as you should be able to trust yours by now. Once you play with Android a bit or any type of code then any code begins to make sense and you will get to the point where you can at least skin through source and see if it is safe or not.

I am up to writing proficiently and creating usable apps in 6 languages now after starting with zilch 4 years ago when I started to learn LSL. The first one is the roughest.
Oh, I've been writing professional code for decades. Only stopped when I didn't feel like working 70 hours a week any more; I was a very active electrical engineer / embedded systems firmware consultant for years, until my company got on its feet.

To Pskye: Android... yeah, I was afraid of that. Ah well. Damn shame because some of us would pop 2 to 5 bucks for a decently written app. My phone is full of free crappy ones because I can't seem to find better... I think you just explained why.

* * * * *

The blacklist fiasco, appealed bans, all of that... this is going to be a real circus.

Can't wait for:

a) noobs who are maliciously given a cryolife download link to this "cool new SL client"... I can hear the little nooblings splatting off banlines already.

b) surreptitious placement of one of these detectors on someone else's region

c) hacker posts saying "try this viewer! evades detection, we confirmed it last night"

Gonna be interesting.
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Old 02-19-2010, 09:46 PM   #177 (permalink)
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While agree it needs discussion and might be good.

I was also bothered by a few things:
1. The 100% claim. Anytime anybody claims 100%, I start looking for their 'god is in my pocket' card. If I can't find it, I get dubious. And I've yet to find that card on anybody, even Pat Robertson who claims he's above god all the time... You can claim you're darn good, but if you claim 100%, you need to prove it.

2. The 'this works but we can't tell you anything about how nor will we say which viewers it catches and which we have decided are legit' part. That just seems ripe for issues.

3. The subscription fee. It may be small, but anytime I'm paying a regular fee of any amount, I want there to be no questions and full disclosure.
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Old 02-19-2010, 09:48 PM   #178 (permalink)
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Okay... This means as much as "I ate a doughnut" to me.
You really do not get it.

The same goes for you Skills. It just so happens that there are a lot more that know of my track record of altruism in SL.
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Old 02-19-2010, 09:50 PM   #179 (permalink)
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Actually, to my current knowledge, there isn't one that isn't detected by the system.

It's already detected all known spoofed versions of neillife and others.
It won't detect ANY client that doesn't put "tells" in. It's not a matter of spoofing... if you just add ripper code to a client, it won't have any "tells". The only "tells" are things added OTHER THAN the ripper code, like stealthing and bragging-right messages.
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Old 02-19-2010, 09:52 PM   #180 (permalink)
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It won't detect ANY client that doesn't put "tells" in. It's not a matter of spoofing... if you just add ripper code to a client, it won't have any "tells". The only "tells" are things added OTHER THAN the ripper code, like stealthing and bragging-right messages.
But it is safe to say "to their knowledge, there are none it can not see". Because of course, if you can not see it then it does not exist?

Guess they think we are all still noobs.
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Old 02-19-2010, 09:55 PM   #181 (permalink)
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It won't detect ANY client that doesn't put "tells" in. It's not a matter of spoofing... if you just add ripper code to a client, it won't have any "tells". The only "tells" are things added OTHER THAN the ripper code, like stealthing and bragging-right messages.
It collects data about the pc that can be used later even if there are no tells any more.

As or the relay breaking when derezzed: The sim will return it if you try to rez it without installer, it won't rez the object at all.
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Old 02-19-2010, 10:01 PM   #182 (permalink)
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Securit...uments_against

Have you actually read the page you linked to?
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Old 02-19-2010, 10:04 PM   #183 (permalink)
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You don't know if your antivirus is working this week, either.

There are spyware packages that antivirus detectors deliberately ignore.
About 4 or 5 years ago I got hit by a very nasty virus that nearly wiped out a collection fo several thousand dollars worth of 3D data files, plus all of my original work (that I have no idea how to price the value on) because some code-monkey decided the virus in question could only affect people using peer-to-peer software and so made the choice to exclude it from Norton, and most of the other anti-virus companies followed suit.

One little pack of Russians put up a blog about it, outing Norton, and showing the ways you get infected. And there on the list was me: Using MSN Messenger.
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Old 02-19-2010, 10:16 PM   #184 (permalink)
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It collects data about the pc that can be used later even if there are no tells any more.
God Damned. You really do think people are stupid and all it is doing is showing your ignorance.

THERE IS NO POSSIBLE WAY TO COLLECT ANY DATA ON ANY OTHER PERSONS COMPUTER IN SL unless they install a program of yours on their computer. The only exception is if they open a stream of yours and you can get their IP and that would be ALL you could get. Are you on drugs???

To go a step further there is no possible way to get any info from their version of SL outside of what their version WANTS to tell you. You do not have access to the flow of info between anyone else's client and the server. The only ones that have that access are Lindens. The only other possible info you can gather are visual such as someone using a rainbow beam, that is it.

You do realize some of us have to do some SEC work in our jobs right? You do understand that some of us know how to do more then turn a computer on and write an email right?
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Old 02-19-2010, 10:18 PM   #185 (permalink)
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God Damned. You really do think people are stupid and all it is doing is showing your ignorance.

THERE IS NO POSSIBLE WAY TO COLLECT ANY DATA ON ANY OTHER PERSONS COMPUTER IN SL unless they install a program of yours on their computer. The only exception is if they open a stream of yours and you can get their IP and that would be ALL you could get. Are you on drugs???
you should go back to lurking
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Old 02-19-2010, 10:29 PM   #186 (permalink)
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Hey ya'll/you are insane and are no longer making any sense at all.
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Old 02-19-2010, 10:36 PM   #187 (permalink)
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...
SKILLS CAN NOT DETECT EVERY VIEWER. That was a lie so why use a lie?
SKILLS CAN NOT CONTINUE TO DETECT THE VIEWER ONCE THE DEV CHANGES THE VIEWER. Another lie, why lie? Why not just say that this will catch some idiots for a while?
Can you prove that in court? If not you are guilty of libel and defamation.
Actually, in court, anytime anyone ever makes a 100% statement, the burden shifts to them having to prove that no exception exists anywhere between here and the Andromeda galaxy, nor in the anti-matter universe, despite all the goatees.

Saying 100% fullproof is a VERY RISKY MOVE in the law, especially in instances such as products liability, insurance claims, and so forth.

You can say 99.9999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999% all you want. But add 00.0000000000000000000000000000000000000000000001% to it, and wham - burden shifts in the law.
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Old 02-19-2010, 10:57 PM   #188 (permalink)
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LL uses a software/hardware fingerprint for bans from what I understand.
Is this data available viewer to viewer?
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Old 02-19-2010, 11:04 PM   #189 (permalink)
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I would advise against not only AR bots but against mob AR parties as well. Once LL id's you as an unreliable abuse reporter then your abuse reports probably go right into the shit can. On the other hand people that have slowly established themselves over time as not ARing unless it is proven actionable with supporting evidence and you only AR when it is really necessary your ARs will probably get fast tracked.
I've been party to 'AR mob party' groups, and we did get a bit of what appeared to be fast-track treatment too.

But then, with the group in question, before we'd send out our 10-20 or more ARs, we'd stand there and debate it.

Unless you mean something by an AR mob party. Doing an 'AR party' with lots of people submitting together can be a good way to get fast tracked if you consistently pay attention to ensuring what you plan to AR is a legit issue. Which means open frank debate without resorting to any personality culting (ie: the moment any such group considers any person 'reputable' and thus worth listening to over the debate, that group loses its ability to be credible).
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Old 02-19-2010, 11:06 PM   #190 (permalink)
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I personally tend to avoid taking legal advice from people who don't appear to have any sort of certifications or qualifications in legal subjects.
Not giving you legal advice. But do note that making a guarantee means that the burden is on you to prove it. And a claim of 100% is a guarantee.
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Old 02-19-2010, 11:07 PM   #191 (permalink)
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LL uses a software/hardware fingerprint for bans from what I understand.
Is this data available viewer to viewer?
all that info can be changed in 5 minutes. people that are really consistent problems will never be kept away from SL.
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Old 02-19-2010, 11:07 PM   #192 (permalink)
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.......................
Aren't you getting tired of having to log in, log out and log in again yet?
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Old 02-19-2010, 11:08 PM   #193 (permalink)
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I've been party to 'AR mob party' groups, and we did get a bit of what appeared to be fast-track treatment too.

But then, with the group in question, before we'd send out our 10-20 or more ARs, we'd stand there and debate it.

Unless you mean something by an AR mob party. Doing an 'AR party' with lots of people submitting together can be a good way to get fast tracked if you consistently pay attention to ensuring what you plan to AR is a legit issue. Which means open frank debate without resorting to any personality culting (ie: the moment any such group considers any person 'reputable' and thus worth listening to over the debate, that group loses its ability to be credible).
That was BJLU. Now we are in AJLU. Organizing mobs to conduct vigilante activity is likely to become as bad as violating the TOS.
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Old 02-19-2010, 11:09 PM   #194 (permalink)
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I have seen how skill's system works, and it is such that it will never generate a false positive. As far as always detecting all viewers, sure, that may not always be true (although they are all caught with their pants down right now).

Eventually, a spoofing method may be made to hide viewers once again, but at the moment, none of them even have a clue how it works, and no client exists that can spoof it.

I don't know exactly what skills has said as far as the "100%" claims or what not, but this is a very effective copybot stopper at this instant, and I hope it takes a long time before the devs figure it out.
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Old 02-19-2010, 11:13 PM   #195 (permalink)
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Well, that's the point. Should the system unban copybotters when they switch back to a normal viewer? and then re-ban if they get caught with Neillife? I mean how else would you design a system like this.. It is a key feature that it remembers avatars, and certain account-independent information.

I got a few requests from people today, wondering why they got caught while using Emerald. In all cases they have been detected using one of the blacklisted viewers in the past weeks, when the autobanning wasn't enabled yet, and i had to defend myself and explain the system again to the relay owners. Funny enough, in the end they did admit it, i still have to hear back from someone though, who hasn't tried to contact me but instead decided to publish her "forced outing" as Neillife user on plurk & co.

I believe in second chances and "accidents" or however you may call it but i don't want to be the judge. I am currently working on way to appeal bans with some friends and i hope it can go online soon.
You really didn't think this through did you?
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Old 02-19-2010, 11:14 PM   #196 (permalink)
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Now when everyone can regain their sanity for a moment you all need to go watch this until it sinks in:

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Old 02-19-2010, 11:15 PM   #197 (permalink)
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I have seen how skill's system works, and it is such that it will never generate a false positive. As far as always detecting all viewers, sure, that may not always be true (although they are all caught with their pants down right now).

Eventually, a spoofing method may be made to hide viewers once again, but at the moment, none of them even have a clue how it works, and no client exists that can spoof it.

I don't know exactly what skills has said as far as the "100%" claims or what not, but this is a very effective copybot stopper at this instant, and I hope it takes a long time before the devs figure it out.
So tell us how you feel about people being banned just for using your proxy? Guilt by association maybe?
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Old 02-19-2010, 11:19 PM   #198 (permalink)
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Des I really do have the utmost respect for you but honestly can you see a day in the forseeable future where the 'Service Provider' is going to be anything other than reactive?

Regardless of the fact that there is obviously massive demand for any possible protections against content theft I have yet to see a single, unequivicable blog post, admonishment or action from the lab, much less a proactive, cohesive policy.
Far from that. I'd almost bet on this thing already having a few Linden alts in its database...

And probably rightly so.

I think the spirit of the device is well meaning, its just those guarantee claims that bother me, the lack of clarity, and after having gotten to page 7 now in this thread - the way some of its people have conducted themselves (I have my bat-monkey crazy moments, but there's a difference between losing it, and posting in a lucid manner with a dismissive hand).
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Old 02-19-2010, 11:23 PM   #199 (permalink)
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I believe in second chances and "accidents" or however you may call it but i don't want to be the judge. I am currently working on way to appeal bans with some friends and i hope it can go online soon.
Too. F*cking. late. You should have done that before releasing the product. As I said above, your Beta test left out some seriously important test cases.

No. The ends does *not* justify the means when an innocent person is put through the grief and time-consuming, stressful events that you have put this person through over the past day or so. I'd also hazard a guess that she has not contacted you (as you state) because you bald-faced called her a liar and a thief everywhere you possibly could.

The arrogance of assuming that the system is foolproof and that anyone "caught" in it is a content thief, beggars belief.
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Old 02-19-2010, 11:29 PM   #200 (permalink)
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So tell us how you feel about people being banned just for using your proxy? Guilt by association maybe?
The people who used to use it to hide them self using cryolife, I hope they have a horrible eternity.

My proxy plugins are non malicious in every way, so I was a bit upset when people were falsely associating them with what bastards used it for.

thankfully, skill's system is accurate enough that it can no longer be abused as such.

It really only targets viewers designed to steal.
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