FlipperPA Peregrine

Well, we all owe Aargle an apology - I apologize. I should have never bet against Linden Lab not enforcing it own policies:

Every attorney I've spoken to (Frank Taney, among others) is of the opinion that this is obviously against U.S. law. Then again, they were of that opinion when it was L$ betting, and Linden Lab ran the LindeX exchange which cleared showed L$ to US$ value.

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Peregrine Salon: Flip & Jenn's thang.

Aargle Zymurgy

I've generally noticed that people who offer apologies are the ones who least need to. So, thank you.

Well, what struck me as interesting is that I had two customers tell me that they waited a bit to buy before running it past their laywers who told my customers it was legal.

Charlemagne Allen

Likewise... I merely hope that Aargle is as professional inworld as he is in forums, and doesn't allow casinos to become the blingtard spam hells that once covered the mainland.

__________________
Charlemagne Allen: YOU'RE A RACIST!
Charlemagne Allen: I HAVE CHATLOGS!
smokergirl Lowenhar: HOMOPHOBE
smokergirl Lowenhar: CONTENT THIEF
Charlemagne Allen: RELIGION SUCKS DONKEY BALLS!
smokergirl Lowenhar: KISS MY ASS YOU CLOSE MINDED HYPOCRIT
Charlemagne Allen: YOU WERE AN ESCORT FOR BARN ANIMALS!
Charlemagne Allen: ZOMG BIG SIG!

Pretty things:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/charlemagneallen/

Colette Meiji

That still doesn't prove the SYSTEM is legit.

Just the Machines in question.

Basically the system consists of

Cover Charge

Legal Machine One - which has gambling but no payout

(score carries over)

Legal Machine Two - which is a completely skill based game with a payout.


Individually there is nothing wrong with any of the component parts.

There is no gambling,

Not until all the parts are used in conjunction - then its gambling.

FlipperPA Peregrine

For your own sake, you may wish to consult with Frank Taney. He's got a ton of virtual worlds experience (look up Stoker's lawsuit, for one) - I have a feeling some attorneys may think this is pure monopoly money, not having any kind of connection to US$.

Regards,

-Flip

Colette Meiji

All the components of a fertilizer bomb are legal as well.

Too bad for those guys in the Michigan Militia the Feds aren't as easy to fool as the Lindens.

Wildefire Walcott

I didn't doubt Aargle's story about the chat log, even though I don't blame anyone who did. It would hardly be the first nor the last time that LL or any other company was arbitrary in their handling of policies (in this case, the policy about not giving any specific rulings on games).

There's another thing to consider though: Linden Lab probably never wanted to ban gambling in the first place. Every casino that closed up shop represented revenue from tier and LindeX transactions that evaporated after the ban. LL banned gambling because their lawyers said they had to, not because of the poor mainlanders who weren't able to get into their sims because of all the casino campers.

Maddening as the wording of the TOS seems, I have every reason to believe that it was carefully worded by LL's own lawyers to give Linden Lab a balance of flexibility and protection. It's almost like they were whispering to game makers, "Psst. Games of chance. Games of CHANCE!!!" and breathed a sigh of sweet relief when Slapnuts and company finally figured it out.

The new games sneak through a loophole, yes, but it's one that LL very likely left open for them. Like I said before, as new legal threats present themselves to LL, the company will evolve its TOS and post new decrees on The Blog, so there's no telling whether these games will be "legal" a year from now.

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Colette Meiji

My big concern is that LL buys this Loophole nonsense, but either the feds or the Credit Cards get wind and don't buy it.

As soon as CC payments to LL start getting shut off, its over.

Tranquility

Wait, aren't $Z's a thing of value if they are used to determine the value of the skill payout "game"? I am assuming you loose $Z at a rate of 1Z = 1L +1 when you win anything in the skill game. If you have no $Z, will the skill game pay out no reward? How is that random?

Mereille

This is going well beyond just the Z$ people.

I have had at least 5 people contact me about their own versions of the Z$ scheme, wanting to hire me to help write their games.

The longer LL stays quiet about these schemes that they have to already aware of, the more it looks like they accept it, and the more widespread and visible it all becomes.

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I don't know why I think I can manage Second Life....just look at my First Life! Gah!

Gigs

It's not random. If you "lose" the skill game, then your Z$ balance does not go down. You just try again until you succeed. There's pretty much no way to lose the money when cashing out.

You even get a free Z$ to offset the 1 L$ it costs to play the "skill" game.

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"It is the paramount duty of governments and of politicians to secure the wellbeing of the community under the case in the present, and not to run risks overmuch for the future" - JM Keynes

ChatNoir Moonsoo

Random thought:

If I as a merchant accepted Z-whatevers in exchange for goods or services, the Z-whatcha's would be a currency, and thus make the use of the Z's for gambling illegal per LL's definition of gambling.

I probably can't accept Whatevah's as payment since (I assume, haven't looked at the new casinos) they have no representation as objects but are just credits stored in some server device. Which then poses the question: how does that make using the Whatevah's distinct from L$ other than the name? Even LL renames L$s: in English they're called "Linden Dollars", in German (for example) "Linden Dollar" (note the absence of the "s", in German the currency name is never put into the plural when specifying an amount in a certain currency). But even though the spelling of the currency-name is localized the ban applies because the currency is being used. Whatevah's are just rename of L$, pretty much the same as the localized currency-name displayed in a localized client.

Gigs

Z$ are non-transferable credits only good for playing the skill game.


E: (Well, and gambling with, of course)

Colette Meiji

You know I really am beginning to wonder if these Lindens understand how the whole bait and switch involved here works.

If they were the brightest of the Lindens they wouldn't be working the thankless job of the g-team.

Macphisto Angelus

Well, this is the kind of stuff that will bring LL down in the virtual world realm. They can't play dumb to what is happening here. Blessing this outright was beyond stupidity. Since the $L has "no value" but presented a problem they sure as hell won't be able to say.. but look, they are playing with $X bucks that have no value, not our $L that have no value and they have to match a color to get it converted back to $L.

This will help LL sell more land and may even spur the SL economy a tad, but I hope LL doesn't get slapped with legal issues and not just a warning to change this time. That will cost us all.

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If life is just a joke, why aren't we laughing?

Colette Meiji

Yeah but I wonder if it ever went up the chain past the G-team.

There might not be any considerations like that at all.

The Policy makers might not have a clue their employees are being hoodwinked.

Lordfly Digeridoo

Quoth Gigs on SLVIEWS:

[07:32] Kaylee Linden: aargyle's machines have been checked by our legal
team and are not against tos




So as long as it's a trivial skill game, it's legal.

Hooray for following the letter of the law and not the spirit.

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http://www.lordfly.com/

Wildefire Walcott

I'm going to open my own non-accredited Z$ bank!

Cincia Singh

I say put all the casinos on one continent, by themselves, and let them live out their squalid lives by themselves with their victims. Regardless of the chat log, the legality, the fuss everyone's made about this ... personally I find casinos to be parasitic, preying on the frailties of it's victims. I assume those who advocate for the casinos have something to gain from them or are naive. If you want an apology, you'll die waiting for it. And if you think I'm puritanical, you're wrong; see my first sentence and remember that zoning is coming and casinos would be a perfect issue for the zoning group to tackle. My 2 cents.

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"Let the sun shine where I lay, keep me young so I may play, and most of all, bless the people I adore, and guard me from the dog next-door." A kitten's prayer.

Joshua Nightshade

I'm not apologizing for anything, I don't think that Linden is correct.

The person who was responsible for policy said they wouldn't check machines, I doubt some random idiot who manipulated things with semantics managed to find someone with the authority to.

Don't worry, I'll make sure someone does!

Aargle Zymurgy

It's not that Linden... it's a whole heap of them.

And I wondered why your name was familiar. I bought a couple of your avatars. Pretty cool stuff. Sorry you're so determined to rag on my products.

Joshua Nightshade

Want a refund?

Aargle Zymurgy

Not really. Was it defective?

Joshua Nightshade

Yours might be now.

Ciaran Laval

The key to getting away with gambling is to have the prize something that doesn't have value, such as a non transferrable item.