Colette Meiji

Odd that her profile says she won't do exactly what she supposedly does in that transcript.


Of course I've heard a lot of things about Zara, none of them particularity good.

This is the first Ive heard shes the "ostensible head of the governance team" though.

Now comes the hard question ..

Does the governance team decide policy?

Colette Meiji

Now the reason I say she supposedly says in the transcript would be demonstrated below ..

Impossibly easy to put words into anyone's mouth in a chat log, even Minnie's


[10:37] Annelin Corrigible: I have a question about the new casinos : the Z$ casinos, are they allowed ?
[10:37] Public Microphone: adding Annelin Corrigible to the question queue.
[10:38] You: better include the S*, G$, LL and Beans stuff in the question, Annelin
... things omitted about behaviour in RP sims....
[10:38] Minnie Mouse: yes, that is the solution. limit who can enter the sim.
[10:39] Minnie Mouse: charge a fee, come up with a secret handshake.
[10:39] Alyx Stoklitsky: That's a dead-end stop to community growth.
[10:39] You: LOL @ handshake
[10:39] Minnie Mouse:
[10:39] You: groups have charters.... if access is limited to the group, then the members have already agreed to the charter.
[10:40] Kaylee Linden: I think we've answered this pretty fully and I know scotts and annelin have questions
[10:40] Annelin Corrigible:
[10:40] Alyx Stoklitsky: Continue. I am done.
[10:41] Annelin Corrigible: Can I ?
[10:41] Minnie Mouse: wurl, can you repeat your ? please
[10:41] Annelin Corrigible: So Are the new casinos with Z$ instead of L$ allowed ?
[10:43] Minnie Mouse: to answer your ? annelin...
[10:43] Minnie Mouse: yes, the games with "Z" are legal
[10:44] Annelin Corrigible: but things like that are casino
[10:44] Minnie Mouse: the system ( the one we have seen) requires you to play a skill based game to get a payout in L$ which makes it legal
[10:44] Minnie Mouse: the payout doesn't rely on random number generation
[10:44] Aargle Zymurgy makes a small smile and wave at Annelin
[10:44] Annelin Corrigible: it's like the return of gambling but legal
[10:45] Minnie Mouse: you can speak to Aargle more about it later, he has the full details
[10:45] Annelin Corrigible: ok
[10:45] Minnie Mouse: i couldn't say it better than you just did, annelin.
[10:45] Minnie Mouse: it is entirely legal.
[10:45] Annelin Corrigible: thank you very much

Joshua Nightshade

No.

Joshua Nightshade

"The Linden Lab Governance Team commonly known as GTeam are a Team of Linden Lab Employees, Lindens who police the Grid, acting as a first response to Abuse Reports. They Review Reports, and decide which action to take i.e. to Ban or not Ban a Resident. They Issue warnings, and Suspensions, they respond to sim grief such as Particle Spammers. "

Liaisons.

Colette Meiji

What makes me think Zara will be promoted to a parallel position of non-importance.

Gigs

I think Zara might be the first to prove that it is indeed possible to get fired from Linden Lab, if this actually isn't a policy change.

Edit: Aargyle I do have to retract calling you a liar assuming the log isn't doctored. But I still have my doubts about all this until it gets confirmation from another Linden

__________________
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Aodhan McDunnough

There's the key phrase: Random number generation.

Based on the chatlog they've inspected the scripts. So technically it's still not gambling, it's a skill-game.

It's not the Z$ that makes things legal, it's the absence of randomness.

Since random numbers can be generated from outside of SL I would suppose they inspected the scripts also for communications.

Thing is... if it's skill-based then that would mean that a skilled player can wipe them out. So it's either they've got a bad business model or they're counting on majority of visitors (paying to enter) not to be able to recoup the entrance fees.

I am assuming the chatlog's legit for the purposes of the above arguments.

Gigs

Aodhan,

You obviously don't understand what's going on here.

You buy these Z$. Then you gamble. Real honest to goodness PRNG gambling. Then, when you want to cash out, you play a "skill game" to cash out to L$.

It's like saying gambling is OK as long as when you cash out it asks you "What is 2+2? Correct! Here is your gambling winnings."

Do you really think a judge is going to go for that if it ever came up in court?

Joshua Nightshade

Colette Meiji

What if it just counts.

So instead of being random it just cycles loss - win - loss - loss -loss loss - win influenced only in part by skill.

That way the "odds" still favor the house. Its still not random.

Its still fleecing people.

It could even count along some progression to make it hard to figure out.

Just speculation ...

---------------
Anyhow .. thing is the whole scheme might fool the Lindens but the Credit Card companies might not agree. And thats the real problem. Not Zara Linden.

They don't want this government ruling affecting them, and they really aren't going to be interested in lengthy technical explanations of why its not "gambling".

They will hear "Second Life has gambling" and do a quick google. yep see it advertised. And then that will be the end of that.


If it comes to that.

Gigs

Judges aren't stupid. I should make that my sig.

Every PRNG already has a period. This means it will repeat itself eventually if not reseeded.

A gambling game based off a PRNG with a short period that wasn't reseeded would still be gambling.

Colette Meiji

Hmm interesting.

Still though I dont think it will go to court so much as it will be a black list for credit cards ..

Since the ruling forbids the credit card companies from dealing with gambling sites ..

Least thats how I understand it.

I dont think Credit cards are going to risk going to court over small potatoes like Second Life.

Gigs

I don't mean to say it will actually go to court. The predictable court outcome if it were to go to court is what will drive the policy though.

Colette Meiji

I think thats the "beauty" of the law ..

The Feds don't have to convict anyone of anything and still can enforce the law.

All they need to do is send a letter to the credit card companies and they will comply.

From a civil rights standpoint it stinks, its oppressive.

But you do have to admire how simply evil it is.

Gigs

I'm with you there. The credit card companies have way too much power right now, and they seem to be in collusion, or just "very well coordinated" with rate and policy changes.

Colette Meiji

Yes true. Because its the risk in court that the Credit cards will base their decisions on.

Which is what LL is basing their decisions on as well.

edit -

Except LL is more Hippy Dippy than the CC companies. =p

Aodhan McDunnough

@Coyote

If it just counts, it's still not a skill game because the player is still not given control over the outcome.

@Gigs

The presence of the convertible Z$ doesn't make it gambling. It's like when you join a skill competition with an entrance fee and a cash prize.

Gambling is in the way a game operates in conjunction with money.



@all

As I said, my comments are assuming the chatlog's legit. I do have serious doubts about the statements themselves though. At any rate, I still don't like the look of it. Smells ichty.

Gigs

It's not like that at all. Did you even read my message?

Aodhan McDunnough

Yes, but remember I'm reacting to the chatlog only.

If your scenario is what's really happening then absofuckinglutely no question it's gambling in my book.

Joshua Nightshade

Aodhan, the games operate identical to pre-ban gambling games. You just don't play with them with L$, you use the Z-whatever. They're EXACTLY the same games. Same mechanics, same method, identical.

The only difference is that if you want to recoup your L$ from purchasing the Z-whatever, you have to play some "indeterminate skill game" which could amount to "Press the blue button!" and your payout is a percentage of the Z-whatever you accumulated during the game.

They think they're circumventing the ban because you don't play with L$, you use Z-whatever. The games are EXACTLY the same though, minus the fact that you don't use Lindens.

Gigs

Colette Meiji

lol thats twice in two nights now I've been confused for another lady with "CM" initials.

LOL

Colette Meiji

hmm but what if its not actually random "under the hood" but they just lie and tell the players it is?

LOL who knows.

Aodhan McDunnough

Sorry. Wasn't wearing my classes. :grin:

Colette Meiji

hehe

I see what you are saying about the chat log.

But the Sign doesn't jive with the chat log.

Which is interesting.