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Old 06-06-2018, 07:32 PM   #1 (permalink)
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Um, Users?

I went to the Sinespace website, and it seems a little schizophrenic. It pitches completely to creators, a lot of enthusiasm about the tools for creators to make & sell terrific virtual goods.

But it doesn't say anything about who the buyers will be. There is nothing on the website to appeal to non-creator users, no destinations to visit, no pitches on the exciting and gorgeous worlds that people have already created.

This is a problem that Sansar has, people may create pretty destinations, but LL does nothing to bring people there except list them in their catalog.

I see no Sinespace press or blog posts in 2018.

So,Adam, are you folks winding this venture down? Or maybe there are exciting Sinespace-based VWs coming soon from creators you're working with, that will be pitched through their own portals?
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Old 06-07-2018, 01:55 AM   #2 (permalink)
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Hey there. Been a beta tester over there since at least september 2016. Are things quiet right now? Sure. Winding down? Not at all from what I have heard and seen. The dev team isn't huge but they get the quietest when they are working the hardest. Right now on the plate they are supposed to be rolling out a complete UI overhaul soon. Adam has been teasing at the long awaited groups feature as something in the near future. More improvements and tweaks for the VR interface. As well as the official iOS and Android clients maybe having a public release before long.

It has been quite a bit since the last. Official client update. But there have been a number of preview updates. A lot of people don't see those. And for good reasons. I don't have any pictures on hand but a while back there was a materials bug that cropped up with some rather crazy effects. Smeary metallic everything and AV that looked oddly blackfaced in the right lighting. But it was fixed quickly. There was also the Halloween nobody danced. Of course halloween there is a new client version pushed out. And of course having moved Gothika from SL to Space. Goths, halloween, hey-o. Of course we had plans for that night lol. And we all kind of just wobbled standing in place like zombies as we could not trigger animations other than the default AO or furniture. Was a new client was pushed out in hours fixing the borkedness. And then there are those like myself that have to push boundaries and use exotic software packages (blender) that doesn't always play nice with unity and software built on it. Constantly breaking things as I bop my head against my desk. Trying to figure out if it's just me or not. I have a huge dent on my desk now. But it's all good. I just use it like a corral to keep my wireless mouse from getting knocked off the table. But in the process of my annoying Adam with crazy oddity #2432423555 things should be getting more robust and streamlined for those that will follow.

Bootstrapping a virtual world. Especially one that is aimed to be user created. Doubly so one that is still being coded etc is a tall order. You have to have people to get people. And do you create and dump in a whole lot of your own content and compete against the people you look to draw in. Or do you hand them a semi blank canvas and let them go. And as things are being built. Sometimes pre existing content gets broken and takes time to be fixed. And on top of that a lot of us have $day_jobs. Though not many with hours as wildly varying as myself. I would love to be able to sit and design stuff for space all day every day. As would others. I have so much crazy stuff in my head. If I could get it all out in to space fast enough......that sounds like a recipe for explosive decompression. But content for days!

As a creator/creative type space hits a lot of the right buttons and just rubs me in a lot of the right ways so to speak. From their ethos about IP. LL just looks at you annoyed. Hi-Fi is all like "hey if we don't see it, and if we do meh not much we can do". VRChat too. It's a bit of a pain. But everything that makes the live servers in Space gets inspected. By actual people. Space really takes it seriously. But then they should. In many ways they are looking to improve on monetized platforms like SL. Which was, are, and will be rife with problems. I can go on to the SL MP and pull up hundreds(thousands) of copybotted items easily. That have been listed months and even years. I have seen the SS staff already handle a case or two. Where content that was potentially IP infringing was given a nice firm boot. The downside being that it keeps people from uploading huge libraries of copyrighted content they don't have rights to for everyone to play around with. Yall gotta wait on us slow beta tester creators to make original things. Believe me we are working on the content side

_____________________________________
Sorry for the rambling

TL/DR no not dead at all. Users will be there when the content is there. And those of us in the community are working on said content. It's a slow and dedicated process. The unhelpful answer is patience. SL was not built in a day. And hope to see you out and about sometime

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Old 06-07-2018, 07:18 AM   #3 (permalink)
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Thanks Pie!

Nope, we're not winding down - actually, the number of users has grown a lot this year, still a way to go; and yeah - we've got some big updates going on at the moment which has held some viewer updates up.

The blog team have been posting stuff periodically; Inspector, Archimatix and Interactables coming soon! | Sinespace Blog - but there's a lot more we're working on at the moment.

The update we're currently working on has a bunch of really big features that are taking some time to get deployed; in no particular order, and by no means a complete list; we have the following things due for release 'real soon now™':

- Groups (now done, pending release!)
- Much more powerful inworld build tools (see blog post above & watch the video)
- Interactive physics (inc. VR support) for being able to grab/manipulate objects logically, such as opening/closing doors by pushing/pulling them, pushing buttons, etc. "physically".
- New base skins for male/female (which'll be released as PSDs to creators as well)
- A lot more ethnic body sliders (particularly facial sliders)
- The ability to transpose clothing between genders on a slider.
- Fixes to the way tucking/deletion works between worn clothing items
- Huge changes to our editor pack UI to make life easier (lots of timesaving improvements, been a big focus.)
- For scripters: the ability to debug scripts inside Visual Studio Code (inc. breakpoints & watch windows!) (VS Code is cross platform incidentally)
- A metric ton of new script functions

At the moment on the website, it's getting overhauled (we just hired a new web designer recently, and he's ramping up at the moment.) to add a bit more of a user/consumer focus - our plan has been to get a lot more content in first (otherwise users just simply leave), but with a years content now, we're beginning to ramp up a bit more.
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Old 06-07-2018, 05:53 PM   #4 (permalink)
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*interior monologue*

Nice of Adam to drop by ... lemme see, should I give it a spin? ... hmmm let's look at the company's website ... interesting .. Brain Wave project, cool ... man, they've been doing this Space thing a while ... I guess they figure they have time, 3D is maturing slowly, Adam and pals are all still young & probably not hurting for wealth ... some turnover in executives ... oic, Gourlay just stepped aside for a junior partner, too bad but ...

HOLY SHIT they have access to a lot of venture capital, for what they're doing!

OK, now I'm curious.
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Old 06-07-2018, 09:07 PM   #5 (permalink)
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I've been there from time to time. Mostly to Gothika. It's a nice place and the viewer is quite nice.

It does take a bit of configuration for those coming from SL, but once that's done it works quite well.
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Old 06-07-2018, 09:08 PM   #6 (permalink)
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Hm. Actual people in here.

Now where do I get a ferret avatar?
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Old 06-08-2018, 03:44 AM   #7 (permalink)
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Well, if you feel like experimenting, there's a bunch on the Unity store that could be used if you feel like uploading it.

https://assetstore.unity.com/search?q=ferret
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Old 06-08-2018, 05:45 AM   #8 (permalink)
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Not exactly a "bunch".

There's three actual mustelids, only one that's an athropomorphic avatar. Is it just a matter of uploading it, or do I need to fix rigging and stuff? Would third party animations work? My previous attempts at that kind of thing have been less than encouraging. I'm not an artist.
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Old 06-08-2018, 06:30 AM   #9 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Argent Stonecutter View Post
Not exactly a "bunch".

There's three actual mustelids, only one that's an athropomorphic avatar. Is it just a matter of uploading it, or do I need to fix rigging and stuff? Would third party animations work? My previous attempts at that kind of thing have been less than encouraging. I'm not an artist.
As long as it is a humanoid rig, you won't need to re-do any rigging for existing animations to work. (There's a nice intra-humanoid animation retargeting system for Unity built-in)

If it does have a non-human rig, then the animations in the model can be used, but you will need to do a bit of work wiring it up & setting up a animation controller. It's best if it is humanoid, since then you can use all animations (e.g. gestures, etc.)

If you want some tips on that, join the Animation channel on our Discord, or I can help you out next week when I've got a bit of time.
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Old 06-08-2018, 07:43 AM   #10 (permalink)
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So, does this count as humanoid?

https://assetstore.unity.com/package...g-ferret-47541
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Old 06-08-2018, 10:38 AM   #11 (permalink)
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I finally got around to signing up for Sinespace, which I'd been meaning to do for a while. I figured I'd get shunted off to some browser based client, being a Linux user, but they have a Linux client. Which is good because the browser based client has memory out of bounds issues that prevents login to the Welcome area.

And if you want to know what it's like? It's a fairly standard Unity based VW. Their UI is acceptable by my standards, IMHO (though I wish they'd use the standard SL keyboard camera and movement controls) and it performs fairly well. I WISH SL performed as well with the equivalent draw distance and shadows. Complex spaces, like the Blackopal one, take time to load.

But again, it's Unity based so the avatars are Not As Pretty and the hair/shoes/etc aren't the equal of SL.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nika Talaj View Post
I went to the Sinespace website, and it seems a little schizophrenic. It pitches completely to creators, a lot of enthusiasm about the tools for creators to make & sell terrific virtual goods.

But it doesn't say anything about who the buyers will be. There is nothing on the website to appeal to non-creator users, no destinations to visit, no pitches on the exciting and gorgeous worlds that people have already created.
yeah, I noticed that too. Blue Mars and other defunct VW's did the same thing. Without users there's no incentive to create content and without content users have no incentive to stay. It is a conundrum. That said:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Adam Zaius View Post
to add a bit more of a user/consumer focus - our plan has been to get a lot more content in first (otherwise users just simply leave), but with a years content now, we're beginning to ramp up a bit more.
Adam is absolutely right that users leave without content. That was one of the problems with Playstation Home. People tried it out in Early access/Beta when there wasn't much content...messed around a bit and left. And then never went back and never discovered all the MASSIVE amounts of new Home spaces added over the years. I STILL to this day miss Saucer Pop. I'd pay money to get access to a Unity based VW with Saucer Pop, or Sodium or Novus Prime.

Like I always say, all these Unity based VW's remind me of Playstation Home. Heck, what I've seen of Sansar (videos and screenshots because they don't have a Linux client) reminds me of Home. Even Sinespace reminds me of Home...and also Atom Universe.

Adam, I really think you should talk to the Atom Republic folks behind Atom Universe about..I hate to say this....merging your efforts and companies. They are already on console, but you have WebGL and Linux builds. They've very slowly started getting former Home devs on board which is a HUGE advantage. Home devs are already familiar with building "spaces" for virtual worlds. In fact, at least two of Sansar's experiences are also by a former Home developer.

In fact, I don't like all the duplicated effort all these Unity VW devs are going through. Instead of working together and basically re-creating "HOME" for PC and console, they each want their "own thing". But one of the reasons that HOME had the hardcore money spending userbase it did (like SL does) was that it was One Stop Shopping. You didn't have to have 3 (or more) different VW's installed, each with their own store and currency. You had ONE. You could go from playing Reversi in the LocoRoco space, to Salt Shooter in Sodium and then on to Novus Prime, and then to Home Tycoon and then on to Home's Casino. Instead we now have Atom Universe, Four Kings Casino, and Big City Stories that duplicate functionality between them and even look similar.

Each of them do "something" right, but none of them do "everything" right. And they're splitting the userbase. Think about it. In the HOME days you could buy your little black dress, sci-fi outfit, or Hogwarts uniform and wear it while at the Casino or playing Home Tycoon or whatever.

But all these separate Unity VW's don't benefit from Unified Content and a unified customer base the way Home did and that is a crying shame. Again, Content attracts users, and more users attracts more content. Combining content and userbases would be a good thing, if possible.
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Old 06-08-2018, 10:38 AM   #12 (permalink)
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I'd say yes - specifically the requirements are;

- Upright biped (or it will look odd when it is made one...)
- Hips, Spine, Arms, Hands, Elbows, Knees, Legs, Feet & Head bones (eyeballing it looks like it has all these)

If it's got all those, you can retarget all our normal animations onto it. (If it has extra bones, you can improve the quality of the retargetting, there's about 30 optional bones you can add to a rig, but the ones above are the hard requirements)
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Old 06-08-2018, 10:43 AM   #13 (permalink)
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Again, Content attracts users, and more users attracts more content. Combining content and userbases would be a good thing, if possible.
I can't say too much about users (that's a can'o'worms), but content is fairly portable - we follow 'The Unity Way' for a lot of content development, so content designed for Unity can be imported with ease.

I would probably dare say some of the improvements we've made to Unity; may actually make it significantly easier. (esp. with the upcoming developer tools release)
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Old 06-08-2018, 11:15 AM   #14 (permalink)
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If it's got all those, you can retarget all our normal animations onto it.
So each animation would have to be manually modified to use it? Oof.

What about the tail? It's rigged, you can see it drop when the character jumps.
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Old 06-08-2018, 11:29 AM   #15 (permalink)
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So each animation would have to be manually modified to use it? Oof.

What about the tail? It's rigged, you can see it drop when the character jumps.
No, you'd only need to setup the body.

Re: tail - that would need to be animated separately, or alternatively (and probably better), set it up using physics joints and let the physics do the animation for you.
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Old 06-09-2018, 01:23 AM   #16 (permalink)
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But again, it's Unity based so the avatars are Not As Pretty and the hair/shoes/etc aren't the equal of SL.
I haven't had time on a decent computer to explore, but it's hard to miss how clunky the avatars are. But, is there any reason why you couldn't do the same thing with Unity avatars that folks did with SL ones ... make them invisible and rig up a new, beautifully textured shape, adjustable with sliders? Do Unity avies not have sliders (or other shape controls) for a full set of body parts?

The scene rendering was very good. And the sound seemed more spatial to me - is it?

In lieu of being able to spend time exploring there, I found Strawberry Singh's tour with Adam interesting.

They start at Gothica, which might be an impressive build but is so dark that you cannot see the beautiful subtle texturing that Bronx et.al. doubtless slaved over. So often a problem with Goth & vampire sims! I wonder if the designers are working in room which is dark except for the screen, so everything onscreen appears brighter than to those of us in lit rooms.
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Old 06-09-2018, 03:59 PM   #17 (permalink)
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Are you still goin to offer private grids Adam
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Old 06-11-2018, 08:53 AM   #18 (permalink)
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Hey Biker,

We actually already do - shoot an email to contact@sinewavecompany.com; we've got quite a few private grids in operation now. The support team there can shoot you through the details & pricing.
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Old 06-11-2018, 08:54 AM   #19 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nika Talaj View Post
I haven't had time on a decent computer to explore, but it's hard to miss how clunky the avatars are. But, is there any reason why you couldn't do the same thing with Unity avatars that folks did with SL ones ... make them invisible and rig up a new, beautifully textured shape, adjustable with sliders? Do Unity avies not have sliders (or other shape controls) for a full set of body parts?
Unity itself doesn't really have the concept of avatars, that's all homegrown; but you can replace the avatars (or parts of the avatars) as a designer. It's possible to make 'mesh bodies' that still work with the sliders system (one of my masterclasses on our YouTube touches on this already)
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Old 06-11-2018, 01:07 PM   #20 (permalink)
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Unity itself doesn't really have the concept of avatars, that's all homegrown...
Interesting! A ray of hope for potential Sinespace fashionistas

An interesting partnership for you might be with Ginger Chevalier (Absolut Creation), a currently active designer (or group of designers, I have no idea). Absolut not only has pretty respectable male & female bodies & body accessories, but also has been selling (I assume original) templates & fullperm kits in SL for ages.

Ginger/Absolut was a latecomer to the mesh body market, so may be interested in a platform where she could come in early. [Maitreya is incredibly dominant in the SL mesh body market - was not the first body maker, but got in pretty early with the first well-hudded body that was reasonably generously fleshed.]
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