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Old 09-13-2018, 12:45 PM   #26 (permalink)
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I think you're mixing up Google and Apple. You can't even install a different browser on iOS, all you can do is install your own skin on Safari.

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Most people appear to be aware of how invasive and unethical Google is
Oh, do tell me. [citations required]

I don't use Chrome, I use Firefox or occasionally Opera. I don't use Apple's or Microsoft's or Google's "free cloud storage". But every time someone points me at something terrible Google's done and I look and it's a nothingburger compared to what their competitors were or are doing.

Meanwhile Microsoft deliberately opened a whole new attack surface that led directly to an explosion in malware, just to keep people from removing their browser from Windows.
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Old 09-13-2018, 04:14 PM   #27 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Argent Stonecutter View Post
I think you're mixing up Google and Apple. You can't even install a different browser on iOS.
Wot?

https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/goog...me/id535886823

https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/fire...er/id989804926

https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/oper...er/id363729560
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Old 09-13-2018, 04:41 PM   #28 (permalink)
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I think you're mixing up Google and Apple. You can't even install a different browser on iOS, all you can do is install your own skin on Safari.
Have you tried to set a different app as your default calendar or address book on your Android device? Cuz you know, I tried on an Android tablet I had last year, and I sure wasn't able to make it happen. I was able to set Outlook as my default email app, but there wasn't even an option for using anything but Google's account-connected contacts and calendar. Oh sure, I could download "a calendar app" but there was no way to make that, and not the default one, pop up when I clicked a date. Because there's no way on earth Google's going to let that kind of personal information reside on its devices in a place where it can't get to and exploit it.

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Oh, do tell me. [citations required]
Well we can start with things like how Google's privacy options are misleading, and "opting out" of data collection doesn't do anything but keep them from attaching your actual name to your data - they still collect it from everywhere and they still sell it, and it's more than plenty enough information for third parties to use to identify you without Google giving them your name, and you can't stop them from doing so. And logging out of your accounts when you're not actually using them won't help either, because Google is allowed to keep track of what devices you have ever logged into any Google-owned services with and back-end associate those devices themselves, and everything that's done on them that it becomes aware of, with your Google account. Meaning that every time you go to a web page that uses Google Analytics with a machine or device that Google already know is yours, they're still collecting your activity and they still know that it's YOUR activity even though you're not currently logged into any Google services. And no, you don't have an option to opt out of any of that, even though their front-facing privacy controls are worded to mislead you into believing you're stopping that from happening.

Need something more recent and more blatant? Okay: have you ever turned off Location Services on your Android phone or tablet? Well if you did, [bleep] you cuz the device and many of its apps, particularly the Google ones, are still tracking and recording everywhere you go and saving that data to your "file" even while straight up lying to you that they're not.

One can say "but Microsoft blaaaah", but it rings hollow. Microsoft collects OS telemetry and web use stats and it's fine to object to them doing that; but it doesn't collect even close to as much data, or for the same reasons; nor is MS even in the same country as Google when it comes to the depth and sheer scope of Google's internet-wide data fishnet and how it is capable of logging every single detail of your online and even your offline life. It's not even a contest.
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Old 09-13-2018, 05:17 PM   #29 (permalink)
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Those are skins around the Safari rendering engine.
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Old 09-13-2018, 05:31 PM   #30 (permalink)
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First off, that article says "given what Google says it can do, it's possible that they *could* deliberately provide information to Walmart that could let Walmart link PII to the information you get..." but the scenario they listed is an extreme slippery slope interpretation.

Remember we have repeatedly had huge panics about changes in LL's terms of service that people have deliberately interpreted in the worst possible way, and when you look at them they're basically "we need to have these rights to actually provide the SL service".

So I'm not going to believe some guy on Linked In who's doing the same kind of thing.

Secondly:

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One can say "but Microsoft blaaaah", but it rings hollow.
Nope. What Microsoft did with their appalling "we don't even care about security" desktop-browser integration was so far worse than anything you've listed it doesn't count. They didn't just maybe let Walmart maybe know that you visited some websites Walmart is interested in, they let every fucking crook in the world who knows a skr1pt kiddy do anything they want on your computer, and refused to back down on it even under the threat of having their company chopped up. They maintained the whole malware infrastructure basically intact from 1997 to 2005, backed down on one hole then (switched Outlook from using IE's rendering engine to using Office's), but didn't really close that off until 2011. They still have whole attack surfaces that no other platform has, because they refuse to undo the desktop/browser integration.

That was pure *criminal* evil. It's not even *smart* evil, it's *stupid* evil. And this move is part of it. It's a continuation of the mind-boggling browser strategy they've been fucking the whole industry with for 20 years.

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Old 09-13-2018, 06:02 PM   #31 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Argent Stonecutter View Post
Remember we have repeatedly had huge panics about changes in LL's terms of service that people have deliberately interpreted in the worst possible way, and when you look at them they're basically "we need to have these rights to actually provide the SL service".
Except that's baloney when it comes to Google's services, and I'm sure you're smart enough to know that. Google does not need to record your location when you log into YouTube, in order to provide a working YouTube. It doesn't need to save your location history in order to provide a working Google Maps. It just wants to, because it can sell that information. It can say "Google needs this information in order for YouTube to work properly", but it doesn't need to justify that statement until a judge orders it to.

A bad design choice that leaves a computer less secure against criminal attackers isn't in the same league as active mass surveillance for profit. I can buy antivirus software, download patches, and develop internet usage habits to help shore up security weaknesses on my computer. I can't do anything to stop Google from tracking my internet activity. Even never registering an account on anything that Google owns and operates (or will happen to acquire in the future), as difficult as that would make using the internet in the modern day, is not enough.
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Old 09-13-2018, 09:10 PM   #32 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Dakota Tebaldi View Post
HOW F*CKING DARE MS TRY TO ENCOURAGE THE USE OF THEIR OWN PRODUCT ON THEIR OWN PLATFORM there's literally a link right there for turning these kinds of notices off.
The problem is users who are not techies.

1) User calls helpdesk: 'I am having problem xyz'

2) Helpdesk instructs how to download another browser.

3) User takes the default in installing, not knowing better.

4) Confusion then ensues.
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Old 09-13-2018, 09:19 PM   #33 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Argent Stonecutter View Post
I think you're mixing up Google and Apple. You can't even install a different browser on iOS, all you can do is install your own skin on Safari.

Oh, do tell me. [citations required]

I don't use Chrome, I use Firefox or occasionally Opera. I don't use Apple's or Microsoft's or Google's "free cloud storage". But every time someone points me at something terrible Google's done and I look and it's a nothingburger compared to what their competitors were or are doing.

Meanwhile Microsoft deliberately opened a whole new attack surface that led directly to an explosion in malware, just to keep people from removing their browser from Windows.
Of course over in android land you can replace pretty much every component, most without even bothering to root the phone.

Keep buying iPhones though. Dump them in the trash or something. It helps my retirement fund.
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Old 09-13-2018, 09:22 PM   #34 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dakota Tebaldi View Post
Have you tried to set a different app as your default calendar or address book on your Android device? Cuz you know, I tried on an Android tablet I had last year, and I sure wasn't able to make it happen. I was able to set Outlook as my default email app, but there wasn't even an option for using anything but Google's account-connected contacts and calendar. Oh sure, I could download "a calendar app" but there was no way to make that, and not the default one, pop up when I clicked a date. Because there's no way on earth Google's going to let that kind of personal information reside on its devices in a place where it can't get to and exploit it.
Are you running stock android or the launcher put on there by your manufacturer/carrier?
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Old 09-14-2018, 06:08 AM   #35 (permalink)
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A bad design choice that leaves a computer less secure against criminal attackers isn't in the same league as active mass surveillance for profit.
It wasn't just "a bad design choice". It was a completely insane design choice, known at the time to be fundamentally insecure, taken explicitly as part of a criminal scheme to bypass their consent decree with the justice department. That was the ONLY reason they had for making the browser "part of the OS" instead of an application. It was absolutely unequivocally unarguably knowingly criminal. Officers of Microsoft should have gone to jail.

Antivirus software, patches that still live the fundamental holes in place, and trying not to get phished are just mitigations. NOT FUCKING INTEGRATING UNTRUSTABLE CODE INTO THE OS was the only correct path, and they only halfway undid it after almost a decade of exposure... and they still haven't backed down, and what they did here is part of the same criminal activity.

And you can't protect yourself against your banks, the stores you frequent, your IRA, or the government itself getting compromised as a result.

Quote:
I can't do anything to stop Google from tracking my internet activity.
But you only have randos on linkedin arguing that they're actually doing anything unethical with the data.

Facebook, now, we *know* they were sharing PII with criminal conspirators. Is there *any* evidence of Google doing anything like that, even with companies let alone Russian-allied fake "researchers"?
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Old 09-14-2018, 08:25 AM   #36 (permalink)
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I have a rarely turned on XP machine that will only run a non microsoft browser, namely an old version of Opera. What's with that?
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Old 09-14-2018, 08:30 AM   #37 (permalink)
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I have a rarely turned on XP machine that will only run a non microsoft browser, namely an old version of Opera. What's with that?
Modern browsers don't support XP anymore probably. Did they all go 64 bit only these days?

One pain I used to have with XP, right on the cusp of when it was officially dying, the built in browser on a fresh install is I think IE6, but the modern internet basically isn't supported in IE6 anymore, and so it was next to impossible to use IE6 to download Firefox or Chrome. You basically had to use a second machine and find a stand alone installer and copy it over.
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Old 09-14-2018, 10:46 AM   #38 (permalink)
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Yeh, even I've dropped XP. I used to keep one XP VM around for monitoring my ESXi server because it was a tiny fraction of the size of the smallest W7 VM I could get to boot, but now that VMware Fusion supports ESXi I haven't booted it once.

Windows NT 3.51 was the best version of Windows.
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Old 09-14-2018, 05:45 PM   #39 (permalink)
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Windows NT 3.51 was the best version of Windows.
Didn't that use the same interface as Windows 3.1x? Yeah, I love nostalgia, but not that much.

As far as Windows versions go, I've grown to love Windows 10. Yeah, it's got some quirks, but even a rose bush has thorns.

Windows 7 was a close second for me.
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Old 09-15-2018, 08:04 AM   #40 (permalink)
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Didn't that use the same interface as Windows 3.1x? Yeah, I love nostalgia, but not that much.
The shell was just a shell in NT 3.51, it was an application and could be replaced without heroic efforts. The Windows 9x shell (Windows Explorer) was originally "newshell" on NT. Once they replaced file manager with "Explorer" a lot of what was presented as file system functionality was only available through the shell.

Also, NT 3.51 was the last version of Windows with kernel level security being actively used between subsystems. You could actually restart the whole display system (GDI) in 3.51 while leaving non-GUI applications unaffected, or run multiple GDIs with completely different privileges. There was a really nice package called NTerprise that provided an alternate GDI that mapped Windows display calls to X-Windows calls, giving NT a native remote display subsystem that didn't depend on screen scraping.

NT 4.0 put the GDI in the kernel, integrated parts of newshell into the kernel to make it work like Windows 9x. Windows 2000 brought legacy Windows 9x device drivers into the kernel. Windows XP SP2 brought the DRM from Windows Media Player into the kernel. By the time Windows 7 came along the kernel was a huge toxic swamp, and Windows 7 half-reimplemented subsystems inside the kernel for their "trusted media path" technology... something that would have been much easier in NT 3.x, and cleaner. The kernel cleanups in Windows 7 and Windows 10 have been good, but the result is still like one of those alien swamps from Lost in Space with badly animated plant tentacles where Dr Smith gets turned into a giant carrot.
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