Beebo Brink

Exactly.

What defeated the native populations of the Americas was not guns and steel, but massive depopulation due to sweeping epidemics. By the time colonists began to push inland in the eastern coast of North America, for instance, there was only token resistance from many native American tribes because there number had been so depleted.

I'm in the middle of a book now that is detailing the way in which Easter Island fell to pieces, and part of piecing together an estimate of the peak population is getting past the wave of three epidemics of diseases introduced by European contact. In many Polynesian islands 7/8ths of the population was killed off in this manner.

Pre-literate cultures from South America to Australia have all faired very poorly, even when they haven't been forcibly "assimilated." They are not children, but they are at an extreme disadvantage when they come in conflict with the rapacious, capitalist greed that dominates our cultures.

Even well intentioned attempts to do nothing more than improve infant mortality, for instance, can have devastating conseqeunces on groups that have reached an equilibirum of population to resources.

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Atia

Of course knowledge is not evil. Intent is the operative word.

We can't guarantee every altruistic act toward *helping* these people is going to reap a positive result. We would more than likely be met with a bit of resistance. Throw into the mix the misguided do-gooder, the ill-informed and the truly greedy bastard and you have tragedy waiting to happen. Call me a cynic but again, the Native American Indian story is emblematic of the sins perpetuated on a less sophisticated indigenous people.

"The road to hell is paved with good intentions. Merely intending to do good, without actually doing it, is of no value."

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Men are all alike in their promises. It is only in their deeds that they differ. Moliere

Atia

It's casinos next!!!!

Brenda Connolly

Momma needs a new pair of shoes!

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http://brenda-connolly.blogspot.com

Walker

I'm hitting thank you all over the place btw, because I appreciate being informed about the other side of the argument. I am ignorant of the issues involved and the fallout from previous encounters, and that's why I have so many questions.

Atia

Information sharing is the ultimate goal. I've learned a thing or two inthe past from you too Walker. Thanks!

caroline ra

Agreed Q

Centuries ago the interference in peoples lives was justified by spreading the word of God to the heathen. Closely followed by the dilution of the culture, rape of resources and some form of colonialism even if it was just financial aid (dependence).

When I posted the BBC links to you in the Stonehenge thread Im pretty sure I read the filmed documentation of this tribes existence was done by a group to show that the deforestation of the rainforest was damaging the cultures of several of these isolated tribes. Damn now I got to go and check.

Ok here it is

Ten

They probably have some kind of alcohol.

And drugs.

God knows we didn't go long without drugs. (Society-wise)

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Beebo Brink

I've been following this on Corporate Media, and the reason these photos were released now was because the people are already in danger of losing their forest to loggers. Announcing their existence is a step toward trying to protect them and their land from exploitation, so the loogers can't claim ignorance of the effect of what they're doing.

caroline ra

I think Ive found my next avatar pic.

Alfie Demonia

Banksy?

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Last Fm
Flickr, innit
The world was a mess, but his hair was perfect.

Shiva Shiskabob

oh great now you've just made my inner archaeologist cry!

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Panic! Paaaanic!

Is Himushet Anatra inworld. Minus th'pickles.

caroline ra

Of course, all my av pics are Banksy's. Hes a Bristol lad.

He grew up in the Bristol suburbs I think but I know he lived in Montpelier just on the edge of St Pauls when he 1st started. Most of his early work was done around St Pauls and it was neat to walk thro Stokes Croft to Easton and see what hed produced overnight.
Shame hes big time now in a way. Tho he was at Glastonbury last year cause he left a few reminders there and in Bristol.

Alfie Demonia

Yeah alright, smartarse

I was watching a short documentary on his work last night, it was about all these fatcat art dealers who had taken his stuff from the streets and put it up for sale at extortionate (sp?) prices.
This one auction room was packed with all these super rich people, bidding on an artwork about anti-consumerism.. ugh the irony made me feel a little queasey to say the least

caroline ra

Yeah, I think hes still untainted, at least as far as possible in his situation.

Banksy paints himself into Ken's corner | Politics | The Guardian


I suspect most of the money that goes his way get funnelled off to fight the very things those buyers at the auctions represent.

Ironys not lost on him either

T says 'Destroy Capitalism' (pics not that clear)

Shiva Shiskabob

i bet those shirts would sell if someone made a stand like that. :-\

Nimrod Yaffle

Lol... For those of you up to date with internet memes:

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Cocoanut Koala

Tampons. Contact lenses. (Guess those are healthcare, though.)

Washing machines, dishwashers, vacuum cleaners, AIR CONDITIONING. Movies. Stores! Pianos.

But hey, yeah, I thought this tribe was the coolest thing ever! And loved the idea that there are 100 such still dotting the planet.

coco

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Isabeau Imako

Yes to tampons!
Tampons and toilet paper, I never travel through the Amazon without those two things.





Oh, and a few Kit Kats, too.

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Aaachou!

Quantum Destiny

It was a Monty Python joke

I would be able to give up all the things you have listed above - it would take some time to get used to living life without those things, but I've no doubt I would get used to it. I've never really felt comfy in the urban jungle; I feel most at home when surrounded by green, so perhaps it wouldn't be as great a leap for me as it would be for some others. That doesn't mean I could give up everything - as mentioned before, I could never leave music and books behind. I'm sure there are other things.

When ever I have spent an extended period of time abroad, I start to miss really silly things about England, things I would have never of thought of until I've been without them for a while. Similarly, I bet that the things we would miss most from our modern civilization are things other than those listed in this thread - things that are not immediately obvious to us now, but would soon become so once we have been without them for a while.

Chip Midnight

Damn you progress for taking away my mud hut and replacing it with air conditioned buildings that don't leak water on my head when I'm sleeping, and keep bugs from crawling into my mouth all night. Damn you for taking away the leaves I used to wipe my ass and making me use your soft evil toilet paper. Damn you for taking away my ignorance and superstition and showing me galaxies and other planets and science and mathematics and medicine. Damn you for making all my children live instead of only one in three, and for tripling my life span and giving me leisure time because I don't have to spend every waking minute trying to find something to eat. You evil meddling bastards! Just as soon as my wife finishes picking the lice out of my hair I'll kick your asses!

Joshua Nightshade

Progress made more homosexuals.

Quantum Destiny

Homosexuality was actually accepted as being normal in many Latin American civilizations, that is, until they were persecuted by the Spanish invaders!

Beebo Brink

If indigenous people went from mud huts to air-conditioned condos and life-time healthcare, there really wouldn't be much of a debate about contact.

But they don't. Overwhelming in South America, indigenous people go from a self-sustaining community to landless poverty, often mired in the worst slums of urban areas. They do not get healthcare, they get STDs, AIDS, alcoholism, tuberculosis, cholera.

The harsh reality is that the standard of living that we're comparing is not with comfy US living but with the urban poor of Brazil and other countries which can't even care for the poor they already have.

Chip Midnight

I don't disagree, Beebo, but I have very mixed feelings about it. If contact isn't made you're not just deciding the future possibilities of the current generation of that culture, but every one that comes after.