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Sansar Discuss Linden Lab's Sansar project

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Old 04-23-2018, 11:30 PM   #26 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ramen Jedburgh View Post
This kind of brings up another good point. Maybe people want to have a VR thing they can run around and MEME in more than looking at pretty static things.
Sansar put all their effort into pretty enviornments but their avatars are crap.

VR Chat is all about avatars and being literally ANYTHING you want to be, full on custom skeletons, but the environments are absolute crap.

Which are people more interested in?

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Originally Posted by Snow Crash, Page 51
"Everything is matte black, which makes it a lot easier for the computer system to draw things in on top of it - no worries about filling in a complicated background. And that way all attention can be focused on the avatars, which is the way people like it."
For a company that started inspired from Snow Crash, they really didn't take it to heart.
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Old 04-23-2018, 11:35 PM   #27 (permalink)
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VR Chat is all about avatars and being literally ANYTHING you want to be, full on custom skeletons,
Yeah but that has some unintended consequences - like a few epilep-tastic avatars that seem in one case to have literally given someone a seizure.
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Old 04-24-2018, 12:11 AM   #28 (permalink)
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Yeah but that has some unintended consequences - like a few epilep-tastic avatars that seem in one case to have literally given someone a seizure.
You can do the same in SL, not sure I follow

Anyway SL set a standard - be whatever you want. VR Chat is also the same - anything that can't have that is going to be dead on arrival at this point.

At least to me.
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Old 04-24-2018, 12:17 AM   #29 (permalink)
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Yeah but it's bannable if you do it in SL, isn't it?
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Old 04-24-2018, 11:40 AM   #30 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Dakota Tebaldi View Post
Yeah but it's bannable if you do it in SL, isn't it?
Lord knows something being bannable prevents someone from doing it. Not sure what your point is. VR Chat bans users as well.
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Old 04-24-2018, 12:05 PM   #31 (permalink)
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I don't think Sansar is necessarily DOA. They fumbled the beta, surely. They have a hell of a long way to go. But honestly, I see VR in general as a solution looking for a problem.
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Old 04-24-2018, 01:02 PM   #32 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Cristalle View Post
I don't think Sansar is necessarily DOA. They fumbled the beta, surely. They have a hell of a long way to go.
But where exactly are they going?

Based on what I can see now, Sansar is a virtual museum/exhibit space for 3D modelers. As a user, I go and look at pretty things, then I leave. Incremental improvements haven't provided much insight to change my perception. Most recently, I can go, look at pretty things while sitting down, then leave.

What more is there going to be besides embellishments on this basic dynamic of log in, admire pretty things, then leave? LL doesn't seem to know, or be able to articulate, any goal beyond that one.

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Experiencing it on a Rift was a transformational experience for me.
That's the missing piece for me. Without the visceral experience, I just can't be that thrilled by the concept. So I'm curious, but can't really get to the next level of excitement. Perhaps the best promotion, in the end, will be widespread demos. "Here, try this." And THEN people, myself included, will get it.
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Old 04-24-2018, 01:34 PM   #33 (permalink)
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That's the missing piece for me. Without the visceral experience, I just can't be that thrilled by the concept. So I'm curious, but can't really get to the next level of excitement. Perhaps the best promotion, in the end, will be widespread demos. "Here, try this." And THEN people, myself included, will get it.
Yeah, I was skeptical of VR until I tried it. I'm glad my first experience with it was in a high quality headset. I was surprised how emotional it made me, and how connected I felt. I was also much more - emotive I guess is the best word. I would laugh, cry, scream, want to reach out and touch things and just look around me at everything. It is not something you can explain to someone really. The experience is very unique.
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Old 04-24-2018, 02:08 PM   #34 (permalink)
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VR Chat just got a big update, and this in particular stood out:

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Cameras
  • Photo Camera (VR Only) - Access in the “Camera” menu. Take pictures with a handheld camera! Detach the lens for easy group shots, use a timer for easy setup, and use an arm extension for easy selfies! Images are saved in UserProfile/Pictures/VRChat.
    • Timer - Sets a five second timer to count down before taking an image.
    • Detach Lens - Lets the lens float in space, which allows you to move around while the camera remains stationary
    • Extender - Extends the grab/hold range of the camera to two meters
  • Stream Camera (VR Only) - Access in the “Camera” menu. While using a VR headset, use the Stream Camera to mirror the camera’s view to your desktop. Ideal for recording or streaming in third person!
  • See Active Cameras - You can see all active cameras around you by opening your Quick Menu. All cameras by any user will be highlighted with a bright red column of light, and their viewpoint will be indicated by a red triangle.
Home
  • VRChat Home - You will now spawn in the new VRChat Home when you launch. Explore the Help videos, some nice music, the latest Developer Update, and a few other fun toys. You can invite your friends to your Home!
  • Set Home - You can set a custom Home world by accessing the World entry for a world, and selecting “Make Home”. Reset it back to the VRChat Home by selecting “Reset Home”
  • Go Home - You now have a “Go Home” button on your quick menu which transports you to your set home world (default is VRChat Home)
This is the kind of stuff Sansar should be doing as well - the social features are what makes something "sticky" - people want to come back and also make it their own. Sansar is completely lacking in that regard.

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Old 04-25-2018, 11:00 AM   #35 (permalink)
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Quote:
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Yeah, I was skeptical of VR until I tried it. I'm glad my first experience with it was in a high quality headset. I was surprised how emotional it made me, and how connected I felt. I was also much more - emotive I guess is the best word. I would laugh, cry, scream, want to reach out and touch things and just look around me at everything. It is not something you can explain to someone really. The experience is very unique.
Out of curiosity, what was the demo you expericed as your first time in VR, and what headset was it?
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Old 04-25-2018, 01:54 PM   #36 (permalink)
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Quote:
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Out of curiosity, what was the demo you expericed as your first time in VR, and what headset was it?
It was the "First Contact" demo that came with the Oculus Touch controllers, on the release Rift headset. I was so affected by it I actually started crying like a dork.


I also tried the Oculus demo that had the dinosaur in the museum, the balcony overlooking the city (which has become part of Oculus Home now), and other demos. The dinosaur one made my mom scream when I had her try out my Rift. She loved it lol.
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Old 04-25-2018, 02:26 PM   #37 (permalink)
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I really hope that Sansar turns into something more of a social experience, VRChat and Alt-Space-VR are probably the most 'fun' though suffer from their own issues.

I want to interact with things, build in a 3d virtual world, and look how I want to look without having to learn unity
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Old 04-25-2018, 08:49 PM   #38 (permalink)
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I wish my introduction to VR was as joyful. I'm good in VR as long as the view matches my movements 100%

Anything less gets me sick unless it's 3rd person. Even just holding forward key in Sansar, VR Chat, or New Retro Arcade makes me feel uneasy. Seeing my surroundings glide forward while i know i'm stationary feels wrong. very wrong. can't last more than 5 seconds.

yet i poured consecutive hours into Lucky's Tale and an Ocarina of Time VR mod, and was perfectly fine.

Everyone is going to be different, and first impressions are super bias.

If someone pukes in a VR demo they'll never put one on their head again, and def won't walk away thinking it's transformational, no matter how real it felt.
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Old 04-25-2018, 10:12 PM   #39 (permalink)
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yet i poured consecutive hours into Lucky's Tale and an Ocarina of Time VR mod, and was perfectly fine..
So a 3rd person VR of Ocarina of Time? Or a First Person thing?
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Old 04-25-2018, 11:02 PM   #40 (permalink)
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So a 3rd person VR of Ocarina of Time? Or a First Person thing?
Yeah, third person, just like the regular game. Dolphin64 has a Oculus mod where you can play any n64 game in VR. Nothing about the game changes, except you can see all around and you can see depth everywhere, like you're actually inside it. Not every game works well with it, but Mario 64, both Zeldas, and all the Rareware platformers work fine. First person games work very poorly.

One thing people don't realize about VR, is scale. You're not looking at a screen, you're inside the game/world as if it's real, meaning everything is life-sized. You might imagine your SL avatar as this little puppet in a little world, but in VR the world is correct size and your avatar is a life-sized doll.

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Old 04-25-2018, 11:26 PM   #41 (permalink)
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You might imagine your SL avatar as this little puppet in a little world, but in VR the world is correct size and your avatar is a life-sized doll.
And every building in the world is cavernous!
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Old 04-26-2018, 07:15 AM   #42 (permalink)
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And every building in the world is cavernous!
True, but maybe lets not all chase that rabbit hole ..... again.
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Old 04-26-2018, 09:42 AM   #43 (permalink)
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Sansar isn't DOA, but just because it isn't dead doesn't mean it will ever be anything more than a large scale proof-of-concept.

VR is awesome, it brings a "wow factor" to certain niches which augurs very well for its eventual potential but that potential will not be close to realized until VR-capable technology becomes truly mainstream.

I think what is needed to make it do that is the development of a "VR-OS" environment that is both suitable for general computing and presents as intuitive and easily-grasped interface as the WIMP paradigm pioneered by Xerox PARC leading to XWindows and subsequently shamelessly yoinked by Apple and Microsoft. Of these two it is the "suitable for general computing" requirement that presents the greatest challenges to the current state of VR tech.
- You must be able to enter text as easily as on a conventional keyboard
- you must be able to "look up from your display" without removing the headset.
- The connection between the "wearables" and the "computer" must be wireless.

This argues for a headset with combined VR/AR capabilities. The HMD will need stereoscopic external cameras capable of providing a view of the "outside world" with accurate depth perception. This "background display" would be toggled on for an AR environment or off for full VR. The resolution of the external imagery should be sufficient that the wearer of this HMD should perceive little difference, if any, to their view of the outside world without the headset.

The headset should incorporate over-the-ear headphones equipped with external mics. These should be software-configurable smoothly between "full pass-through" where external sounds are passed to the headphones at a minimal gain such that the user hears everything outside at the same volume as they would without the headphones and "full cancellation" where they would function as the noise-cancelling headphones currently available do and block almost all external sound.

On the input side, obviously in AR mode the user would be able to utilize a physical keyboard. The same ease of text input would have to exist in full-VR mode also. This is a huge roadblock in the current state of the technology. The best current VR text input methods are akin to holding a pencil in one hand and tapping the keys on your keyboard with the eraser. Relying on voice-to-text is not an option, you need to be able to be talking in a virtual meeting and simultaneously taking notes, for example. This means a virtual keyboard upon which you can type with finger movements alone, not gross movements of an entire hand, it means being able to pick up a virtual paint brush and make "realistic" brush strokes on a virtual canvas, it means picking up a virtual pen and being able to write legibly or draw diagrams with it on virtual paper using the same hand and finger movements that you would use to do these things with physical objects. This pretty much mandates a glove controller of some kind. These glove controllers must be unobtrusive enough that you don't need to take them off to pick up your RL coffee cup. If they are too inconvenient to pick up RL objects while wearing them, then removing and replacing them in order to interact with physical objects will also be a royal pain in the arse. Think about how often you handle something other than your computer while sat at your desk. You have to be able to do all of that. As a corollary to this, the underlying OS must be smart enough to recognize that you are reaching for a physical object not an interface element. You don't want to take a slug of coffee while typing a report and find that you just dragged a paragraph of that report off to somewhere random elsewhere in the document.

With this kind of hardware, the option exists for a "VR/AR equivalent of Windows" - something that makes the "Virtual UI" as ubiquitous as Windows made the "Graphical UI" although it's impossible to predict what that interface will look like - once the capabilities of the hardware make it possible, the required concepts will develop.

Until both of these things happen, VR will never be mainstream and environments such as Sansar will never move beyond niche markets and proofs of concept.

That doesn't mean they won't be fun to play with in the meantime though
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Old 04-26-2018, 10:10 AM   #44 (permalink)
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I feel like AR is way more likely to take off than VR, because it solves a lot of the issues of VR, which, primarily, center around the need for 100% focus.
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Old 04-26-2018, 10:25 AM   #45 (permalink)
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Perhaps because spring feels like it has finally arrived, I seem to have fallen prey to an unusual burst of optimism. I decided to see what this Sansar thing looked like.

Well.

That's a half-hour I'll never get back.

LL has achieved what I thought would be impossible; they have made the Sansar new user experience even more baffling and frustrating than their landmark work in SL. Congratulations?

After bumping my butt-ugly avatar into things for a while in a dark room that looked not a bit more special than any half-decent X-Box (or whatever it is my son has at his house ...) game -- indeed, not really dramatically different than any half-decent SL sim -- I gave up.

I was certainly not even marginally inspired to run out and get some VR gear and associated hardware. Instead, it reconfirmed my assessment that LL, to quote a sage, "couldn't pour piss out of a boot if the instructions were printed on the heel, and they're proud of it!"

Sansar may not be DOA, but it sure smells funny.
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Old 04-26-2018, 11:48 AM   #46 (permalink)
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So, this seems like as good of a place as any to ask.

I did Sansar once. Hit a few sims, pr whatever they are.

One was a jungle, there were to other avatars just standing at the entrance, the only others I saw.

I also did the Star Wars museum thing.

So, in the Star Wars thing, I discovered I could pick up things. So I dropped several things all over the floor. So how does this work? Will the next person come and see the mess I made? Is this instanced just to me or what?
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Old 04-28-2018, 12:48 AM   #47 (permalink)
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So everyone's favourite Linden Lab cheerleader, put up a blogpost on Sansar concurrency the other day... the numbers aren't what I would call promising...

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Old 04-28-2018, 04:48 AM   #48 (permalink)
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So everyone's favourite Linden Lab cheerleader, put up a blogpost on Sansar concurrency the other day... the numbers aren't what I would call promising...

Linky Loo (New World Notes, you have been warned)
Wait, thats isn't like "hundreds" even? Thats the straight number?
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Old 04-28-2018, 05:28 AM   #49 (permalink)
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Real-life art galleries get more traffic than Sansar.
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Old 04-28-2018, 08:01 AM   #50 (permalink)
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Okay LL, concentrate on SL for smartphone and tablet.
If it is not too late already.

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