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Sansar Discuss Linden Lab's Sansar project

 
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Old 01-11-2018, 04:42 AM   #76 (permalink)
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I eventually see VRChat out-doing Sansar if LL keeps with their tradition of being utterly tone-deaf to what their users want.
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Old 01-11-2018, 04:50 AM   #77 (permalink)
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Forget Sansar, come to the dark side! We have candy (and faster load times)!
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Old 01-11-2018, 05:54 PM   #78 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Beezle Warburton View Post
I eventually see VRChat out-doing Sansar if LL keeps with their tradition of being utterly tone-deaf to what their users want.
Maybe they are listening to people beyond the population of dwindling SL users?

They need to try to attract new people (who are not current users of SL) to join Sansar, if they want Sansar to be bigger-than-SL. If you just pull old Second Life users over, then you lose SL profit, but gain Sansar profit, that doesn't really increase overall profit. They need to get new people into Sansar.

i don't know that they are going to succeed in doing that. Sansar isn't what i'd hoped it be.. at least not yet. However, i'm not looking for Sansar to be a "Better Second Life" or "Second Life 2.0", which it feels like a lot of SL residents want.

i think it could be great if Sansar attracts a whole-new audience and hardly any of present SL population moved over or liked it. Trouble is, it kinda seems like Sansar is currently attracting no audience. So....
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Old 01-11-2018, 07:48 PM   #79 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Hana View Post
Maybe they are listening to people beyond the population of dwindling SL users?
Ok, fair enough.
Are you saying that you're seeing that?
Who are these people that they're hoping to pull in?
Are they actually reaching them?
Are those people actually joining?
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Old 01-11-2018, 08:09 PM   #80 (permalink)
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I don't get any impression that the Lab is trying to pull people over to Sansar - not yet. They seem to know as well as anyone that it's very much a work in progress, simply one that they've opened up sufficiently for folk to peek at.

It looks like I'll soon exceed the system requirements for Sansar. Does anyone have any recommendations of what's worth seeing? Are loading times still horrendous?
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Old 01-11-2018, 09:27 PM   #81 (permalink)
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They need to try to attract new people (who are not current users of SL) to join Sansar
Definitely yes and that's what they've been trying to do. But, as I said, the way things look now, that would take nothing short of a miracle.


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Sansar isn't what i'd hoped it be.. at least not yet.
My thoughts exactly. I've been in Sansar on and off for a year now. My first impression was disappointment and it hasn't gotten any better since then, if anything it has only gotten worse. This is not what I hoped for and it's definitely not what they promised us.


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Trouble is, it kinda seems like Sansar is currently attracting no audience. So....
They are already struggling with the retention rate. That does not bode well.


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Originally Posted by Porsupah Ree View Post
They seem to know as well as anyone that it's very much a work in progress, simply one that they've opened up sufficiently for folk to peek at.
Yes but I think they are making a serious miscalculation there. First impressions are sooo important. The people who are curious enough to take a peek at this stage aren't very likely to be motivated to come back later and as for us people who waited three years for this to happen, we basically go: "oh no! another three years to wait".

Besides, fixing up Sansar isn't about adding more shinies. There are fundemanetal flaws in its core that need to be corrected. Beebo Brink has already explained very well the difference between developer focused and user focused development so there shouldn't be any need to go into more detail about that. But that is just one issue.

As a considerate (I hope) content creator, I've been looking at how Sansar manages resources. I find nothing there to encourage and help build more performant content, nothing at all! As far as I can see, they don't even have basic asset instancing and that is just plain ridiculous. Sansar does have Umbra which is supposed to the absolutely best scene optimization tool the world has ever seen. In spite of what LL seems to believe, it is not supposed to be the magic bullet to solve all performance limitations once and for all. The invetiable results of this are 20 minutes load time and unrealistically high hardware requirements.

Even the very prupose of Sansar is critically vague. Who is it for? What is it for? How suitable is it for the target audience?

One example here are architects. They have several times been mentioned as somebody who could use Sansar as their virtual showrooms. Of course, arhictects tend to have plenty of gpu power at hand, more than enough to handle the requirements of Sansar. But what good is that when their customers don't?

Factors like those can't be fixed or bolted on to a product at a later stage. They have to be in place right from the start and as it turned out, they weren't.
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Old 01-12-2018, 12:09 AM   #82 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hana View Post
Maybe they are listening to people beyond the population of dwindling SL users?

They need to try to attract new people (who are not current users of SL) to join Sansar, if they want Sansar to be bigger-than-SL. If you just pull old Second Life users over, then you lose SL profit, but gain Sansar profit, that doesn't really increase overall profit. They need to get new people into Sansar.

i don't know that they are going to succeed in doing that. Sansar isn't what i'd hoped it be.. at least not yet. However, i'm not looking for Sansar to be a "Better Second Life" or "Second Life 2.0", which it feels like a lot of SL residents want.

i think it could be great if Sansar attracts a whole-new audience and hardly any of present SL population moved over or liked it. Trouble is, it kinda seems like Sansar is currently attracting no audience. So....
I think that’s the same point people have been making in their criticism of LL though. That they don’t know their audience or target market and never have. I don’t mean they don’t know SL users in the sense they don’t understand what we do there and how we use their product. I mean they literally have no idea where we came from or why we stay. I don’t believe most of the SL users I’ve met were ever identified as a part of any target audience group to try to attract. LL got lucky somehow, particularly with retaining as many as they did, but they won’t be able to duplicate it using the same “let’s build it and hope some unnamed unexpected user community stumbles on it, abandons all other hobbies, and commits untold hours a week for 10 years to us” strategy.

I completely agree that they don’t need to build SL 2.0 or listen to SL users, but if Sansars base isn’t intended to be SL users, who is it? Do they even know?
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Old 01-12-2018, 01:58 AM   #83 (permalink)
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Linden Lab is a one trick pony
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Old 01-12-2018, 02:44 AM   #84 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hana View Post
Maybe they are listening to people beyond the population of dwindling SL users?
I don't recall saying anything about SL users specifically.

Whoever their intended target is, they will be clueless.
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Old 01-12-2018, 04:38 AM   #85 (permalink)
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I've tried it out, until I realised there was no way to chat except by using voice. Not too much of an issue right now because I've never met anyone else in Sansar, but what happens when I do? I'll have to speak out loud when my partner is, for example, trying to watch telly or play a video-game, or reading quietly.

On top of that -- something that's also not an issue right now, because of how limited the beta is -- when/if Sansar starts attracting more people, the last thing I want is to sound like a chick. It's not something I'm comfortable with in videogame-type environments.
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Old 01-12-2018, 06:06 AM   #86 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Hana

hardly any of present SL population moved over or liked it




For SL current users and potential similar users today's Sansar is horrendous to load, avatars have ugly faces and there is nothing to do obviously. But reaction to new Fashion Release is mostly highly enthusiastic from what I see.



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Old 01-12-2018, 07:56 AM   #87 (permalink)
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Linden Lab is a one trick pony
Not anymore, they are up to one-and-a-half tricks by now. The Second Life department of LL has done a lot to improve their act since 2014 and although they are still struggling with sins, attitudes and organization models of the past, they have already come a long way. The Sansar department seems stuck in LL's old ways though.

The change of direction - or rather achievement of direction - happened around the same time that Sansar was first introduced. I'm not sure if that was a coincidence. There were two other huge changes in SL's organization around the same time and it can be hard to see what caused what.


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Originally Posted by Beezle Warburton View Post
Whoever their intended target is, they will be clueless.
If I understand correctly, what actually happened was this:

Back in 2011 or 2012 Linden Lab started working on a "Second Life 2", a complete revamp of the entire SL. Rod Humble actualy hints at something like that as early as 2012 (can't find the quote right now - it's somewhere in Inara Pey's blog). LL got to work in their usual whimsical, unfocused way so they didn't get much done at first.

When Ebbe Altberg took over in 2014, he started tightening up and restructuring the organization so it was finally possible to get some momentum to the progress.

But as the new management started to get a feel for how SL actually works, it gradually began to dawn on them that Sansar simply wasn't going to work as an SL replacement. By then the project had come too far to be simply scrapped so they started redfining it instead.

The result was that they had to make up the reasons for doing it at all as they went along in mucht he same way as the original LL team did for SL although for very different reasons.
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Old 01-14-2018, 12:23 PM   #88 (permalink)
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If I understand correctly, what actually happened was this:....
Thank you. What you described would have resulted in exactly what we're seeing now, and it explains why I've always felt Sansar was a disaster of a product, not even up to the dysfunctional level of Blue Mars, but failing for many of the same reasons.
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Old 01-18-2018, 05:48 PM   #89 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lynx F View Post

If I understand correctly, what actually happened was this:

Back in 2011 or 2012 Linden Lab started working on a "Second Life 2", a complete revamp of the entire SL. Rod Humble actualy hints at something like that as early as 2012 (can't find the quote right now - it's somewhere in Inara Pey's blog). LL got to work in their usual whimsical, unfocused way so they didn't get much done at first.

When Ebbe Altberg took over in 2014, he started tightening up and restructuring the organization so it was finally possible to get some momentum to the progress.

But as the new management started to get a feel for how SL actually works, it gradually began to dawn on them that Sansar simply wasn't going to work as an SL replacement. By then the project had come too far to be simply scrapped so they started redfining it instead.

The result was that they had to make up the reasons for doing it at all as they went along in mucht he same way as the original LL team did for SL although for very different reasons.
I've been involved in trying to sell SL to clients for a long time, and the major barrier to using SL has been the high cost of land, and the fact that you need to download a client. Whether you're aiming at companies or schools, or individuals, the cost, high spec needed and the fact that you have to download software have been three of the greatest obstacles.

I can see that a world which could be explored in the browser, where you could prototype games or communities can gather in greater numbers would have a market, but Sansar just isn't that - and it requires an even higher spec than SL to work properly.

I love building with prims in SL and find it easy and enjoyable - and Sansar is not that. If you're a company with budgets for mesh items and time to burn, maybe Sansar will be a good fit at some stage in the future. But currently and for the foreseeable future SL is much more expensive but a much easier environment.

As for the idea that LL is listening to people outside SL - yes, they've always done that. Look how well that's worked out for them! Taking people with little or no knowledge or love for SL was how we came to have the "new" UI and I'm sorry, but even years later I find the appearance menu much worse and less easy to use than it was before they messed with it.

LL has always been searching after the people who don't use SL but might, but the problem is I don't think those people who will take to SL or any virtual world actually know that until they try it. And many, many people will simply say it isn't their sort of thing without trying it. So I think the only way to find more customers is to make an effort to understand the ones who use SL and love it, and try to make the products more applicable to them and not run after the rest-of-the-world mythical customer base who are not only not using SL/Sansar but never will, no matter how much you dumb down the UI.
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