Perhaps this is why Sansar is made to be different - Page 2 - SLUniverse Forums
Navigation » SLUniverse Forums > Virtual World Discussion > Sansar » Perhaps this is why Sansar is made to be different


Sansar Discuss Linden Lab's Sansar project

 
Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 05-19-2017, 07:49 AM   #26 (permalink)
Oddly Controversial
 
Penny Patton's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Here and there. Kinda inbetween places now.
Posts: 4,728
My Mood:
SL Join Date: 11/30/2005
Business: Retired
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lance Corrimal View Post
/me shrugs

having MMO gamers give an opinion about Second Life is like sending vegans to review a steak house on all you can eat day.
I disagree 100%. There is absolutely nothing inherent in the concepts SL is based on that would put off MMO gamers, and plenty that should interest them.

A lot of the issues these two point out are basic polish/presentation issues that LL should have nailed down over a decade ago.
  • "There's no music"
  • "You can't create your character right away"
  • assaulting new user's ears with the awful "can't fly" sound when they hold down the jump button
  • nudity in the new user areas
  • the lack of direction in the new user tutorials
  • the lack of engaging tutorials, the constant ugly "thud" sounds and other awful interface sounds that should have been replaced before SL went beta
  • "you have deformed midget hands!"

All of these issues are ridiculous and totally valid criticism that LL should have taken note of long ago.

Not to mention the biggest issue, "I have no idea what I'm doing!" The things we love about SL are not readily apparent. In fact, LL now obfuscates aspects of SL that drew me in when I joined (some of which I only even discovered because RL friends of mine who were into SL pointed them out to me). I spent hours eyeball deep in the appearance editor and creating my own textures my first day in SL, amazed that I could create my own content. Creating your own content is entirely gone from the new user experience now.

Last edited by Penny Patton; 05-19-2017 at 07:55 AM.
Penny Patton is offline   Reply With Quote
1 User Said Thanks:
Old 05-19-2017, 07:53 AM   #27 (permalink)
Oddly Controversial
 
Penny Patton's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Here and there. Kinda inbetween places now.
Posts: 4,728
My Mood:
SL Join Date: 11/30/2005
Business: Retired
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sansarya View Post
I feel like this whole video is an insight into how to teach Gen Z.
Specifically Gen Z? The reason these approaches are being adopted are because they work on pretty much everyone.

I'd point out that the conclusion we should draw from this isn't that these kids would love SL if it were simplified to an easy, game-like experience, but that most people would more easily discover more about SL, and potentially stick around far longer, if it had a more coherent new user experience and a lot of critical polish that LL has neglected since the beginning.
Penny Patton is offline   Reply With Quote
1 User Disagreed:
Old 05-19-2017, 08:16 AM   #28 (permalink)
Senior Member
 
eighthdwarf Checchinato's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Germany
Posts: 4,811
My Mood:
SL Join Date: 2008/02/07
Client: Firestorm (in Phoenix Mode!), Cool VL Viewer
Quote:
Originally Posted by Penny Patton View Post
I'd point out that the conclusion we should draw from this isn't that these kids would love SL if it were simplified to an easy, game-like experience
I think this conclusion is rather spot on.
Hasn't SL been dumbed down enough already?
The intuitive UI of V1.x: gone (except for Cool VL Viewer and Singularity,and in a way, Firestorm), because of it's basically non-existent "steep learning curve". Last names: gone,for the same excuse. Building: obfuscated and dis-encouraged by the viewer's design. Age-verification: gone. Newbie areas: gone, instead there's this game-like starter area. Then this stupid "Linden Realm" and those other games inworld. And, and, and.
To be honest, if I hadn't been in SL since 2008 and hadn't learned to love it as it were, I wouldn't even touch it with a ten-foot-stick now. Despite Mesh, Materials, Bento, and all the other new shinies.

__________________
Some cause happiness wherever they go; others, whenever they go. - Oscar Wilde
I would challenge you to a battle of wits, but I see you are unarmed! - (attributed to William Shakespeare)
eighthdwarf Checchinato is offline   Reply With Quote
2 Users Groaned:
1 User Agreed:
Old 05-19-2017, 09:12 AM   #29 (permalink)
Oddly Controversial
 
Penny Patton's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Here and there. Kinda inbetween places now.
Posts: 4,728
My Mood:
SL Join Date: 11/30/2005
Business: Retired
Quote:
Originally Posted by eighthdwarf Checchinato View Post
I think this conclusion is rather spot on.
I disagree.

Quote:
Hasn't SL been dumbed down enough already?
SL is more complicated than ever, but the new user experience is certainly dumbed down.


Quote:
The intuitive UI of V1.x: gone (except for Cool VL Viewer and Singularity,and in a way, Firestorm), because of it's basically non-existent "steep learning curve".
Let's take off the rose-tinted cokebottle glasses. The V1 interface was not great. It was in no way "intuitive". V2 was worse, sure. That's almost definitely what lead to so many people clinging to the V1 interface for as long as possible. I'd agree that the current interface leaves a lot to be desired, but I'd say it's at least a marginal improvement over the V1 interface in several ways. It looks nicer and the menus are more intuitively laid out, all while providing the exact same functionality as the V1 interface. "Dumbing down" generally means removing features to simplify the experience. What features are you saying have been removed?

Quote:
Last names: gone,for the same excuse.
LL's phasing out of the last names and their half-hearted introduction of display names as an alternative was poorly handled, but let's remember why LL made this change in the first place. LL was frequently buried under requests for name changes, and the request for a name changing feature was pretty popular with the userbase. Of course we expected LL to give us the ability to change our username, not introduce an all new name that would be pasted over our username, but due to the way SL had been coded, changing usernames simply wasn't feasible. At the time, SL was still getting a lot of new sign-ups and LL couldn't keep up with updating the last name lists. You can argue that how LL handled the introduction of display names was poorly done, poorly communicated, and still leaves most people wandering around with ugly usernames because they don't know how to set a display name, and I'll agree 100%, but let's not pretend that the old system was flawless.

Quote:
Building: obfuscated and dis-encouraged by the viewer's design.
Obfuscated? Yes. I agree entirely. But how does the viewer design discourage building anymore than it ever did in the past?

Quote:
Age-verification: gone.
Age verification didn't always exist to begin with. LL only introduced it in the first place because they felt they had to. How is removing it an example if "dumbing down" SL?

Quote:
Newbie areas: gone, instead there's this game-like starter area.
Do you realize that you've essentially just said "Newbie areas are gone, replaced with newbie areas."? Because that is what you're saying. You can say you don't like the new newbie areas and, fair enough. I'd argue they're better than the old newbie areas in some respects and worse in others.


Quote:
Then this stupid "Linden Realm" and those other games inworld.
I'd argue that LL should be showing off all of the features SL has to offer, including those that allow users to create games and other interactive experiences. However, if you're trying to say that Linden Realms and their other games are badly done and do a poor job of showcasing these features to the userbase I'd agree completely.


Quote:
And, and, and.
To be honest, if I hadn't been in SL since 2008 and hadn't learned to love it as it were, I wouldn't even touch it with a ten-foot-stick now. Despite Mesh, Materials, Bento, and all the other new shinies.

I'm inclined to agree. For every improvement LL has made, they've also introduced a new, awful mistake that sets them back. I've also found it more and more difficult to overlook problems with SL that LL has shown no interest in fixing. Back in 2005 I could excuse a lot because I felt SL was a brand new thing and LL would fix all the major bugs and design flaws. Since then they have fixed almost none of the problems I've seen since back then. Huge, crippling problems that needed to be fixed ASAP are now well over a decade old and it's become clear that LL has no idea what they're doing.
Penny Patton is offline   Reply With Quote
1 User Agreed:
SDF
Old 05-19-2017, 09:55 AM   #30 (permalink)
Senior Member
 
eighthdwarf Checchinato's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Germany
Posts: 4,811
My Mood:
SL Join Date: 2008/02/07
Client: Firestorm (in Phoenix Mode!), Cool VL Viewer
Quote:
Originally Posted by Penny Patton View Post
Let's take off the rose-tinted cokebottle glasses. The V1 interface was not great. It was in no way "intuitive".
Well, I canonly judge from my own experience. It took me less than ˝h from creating my account to getting the gist of it and move, buy, rez, build, edit my avatar, etc. etc.

Quote:
V2 was worse, sure.
That's quite an understatment. If there hadn't been TPV's with the V1.x UI, I certainly would have left SL entirely.

Quote:
That's almost definitely what lead to so many people clinging to the V1 interface for as long as possible. I'd agree that the current interface leaves a lot to be desired, but I'd say it's at least a marginal improvement over the V1 interface in several ways. It looks nicer and the menus are more intuitively laid out, all while providing the exact same functionality as the V1 interface.
That, I'm afraid is just an opinion.

Quote:
LL's phasing out of the last names and their half-hearted introduction of display names as an alternative was poorly handled, but let's remember why LL made this change in the first place. LL was frequently buried under requests for name changes, and the request for a name changing feature was pretty popular with the userbase. Of course we expected LL to give us the ability to change our username, not introduce an all new name that would be pasted over our username, but due to the way SL had been coded, changing usernames simply wasn't feasible.
Which was great. I mean, why couldn't LL just give us both? Keeping the Lastnames, AND give display names for those dumb enough to create account names they later regretted?

Quote:
At the time, SL was still getting a lot of new sign-ups and LL couldn't keep up with updating the last name lists.
As if that had been such a big problem: Just looking up a couple last names on the web, introducing them as new list, done. A few months later the same. Each intern could have done that easily during lunch break.
Quote:
You can argue that how LL handled the introduction of display names was poorly done, poorly communicated, and still leaves most people wandering around with ugly usernames because they don't know how to set a display name, and I'll agree 100%, but let's not pretend that the old system was flawless.
It wasn't flawless, but the last names gave at least some more personality to our avatars, added to the immersion.


Quote:
Obfuscated? Yes. I agree entirely. But how does the viewer design discourage building anymore than it ever did in the past?
By making it more difficult to build, edit, etc? It seems that, since the introduction of mesh, the new target group of SL has become the pure consumers. I think it would have been great to have a tool built-in that changes prim builds into mesh automatically.


Quote:
Age verification didn't always exist to begin with. LL only introduced it in the first place because they felt they had to. How is removing it an example if "dumbing down" SL?
Anything that just requires ticking a box instead of actively doing something is a "dumbing down". I think they should have kept the age verification - and the AR category "Minors on theMain Grid", too.


Quote:
Do you realize that you've essentially just said "Newbie areas are gone, replaced with newbie areas."? Because that is what you're saying.
No, it isn't. Designated Newbie Areas - with Mentors and newbie helpers - are basically gone, with a few exceptions. Instead there is this awful Starter Island (or, has been a couple months ago when I created my latest alt) where you have that awful game-like "experience" which earns you fake L$ on each new "achievement".


Quote:
I'd argue that LL should be showing off all of the features SL has to offer, including those that allow users to create games and other interactive experiences. However, if you're trying to say that Linden Realms and their other games are badly done and do a poor job of showcasing these features to the userbase I'd agree completely.
I don't argue that LL should be showing off all of the features SL has to offer. I fully agree to you here - but does it have to be with such a stupid game?
I mean, nothing against games - but for *me* it's either SL, or playing a game. Not both.
__________________
Some cause happiness wherever they go; others, whenever they go. - Oscar Wilde
I would challenge you to a battle of wits, but I see you are unarmed! - (attributed to William Shakespeare)

Last edited by eighthdwarf Checchinato; 05-19-2017 at 10:19 AM.
eighthdwarf Checchinato is offline   Reply With Quote
1 User Said Thanks:
Old 05-19-2017, 10:45 AM   #31 (permalink)
Ginger Supremacist
 
Ramen Jedburgh's Avatar
Heya ^_^
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Illinois, USA
Posts: 4,842
My Mood:
SL Join Date: 3/9/2006
Client: Firestorm
The Linden Realms games would be neat if the underlying engine wasn't so awful. I mean SL is NOT designed for jumping puzzles in any way shape or form.

And last time I tried to play one of the games, there were people int he area purposely pushing people off into the deadly swap you were trying to jump though.
__________________
--
Ramen Jedburgh

http://allaroundthegrid.blogspot.com/
Ramen Jedburgh is offline   Reply With Quote
1 User Laughed:
Old 05-19-2017, 03:47 PM   #32 (permalink)
Senior Member

*SLU Supporter*
 
Tris's Avatar
watching
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Germany
Posts: 724
SL Join Date: 27/10/2010
Client: Official (w/Starlight) & Catznip
V1 intuitive ????
Maybe for those who had to use it for a long time allready.
For me it's still the worst UI i ever encountered. The only reason i stayed in SL was the V2 UI. If i had been forced to use a V1 viewer, sayonara SL!

But, that "discussion" was done many times before

As for starting areas, i can vaguely remember skipping the one i had, so nothing lost.
And while i'm not in the least interrested in those SL Games, i do see a point to them, as there are obviously quite a few persons who like them.

The only point i really, REALLY agree with you is the missing Lastnames. That was a mistake!
__________________
“I think you're applying a level of logic and a standard of clarity of communication that has never applied in this parallel universe of ours.” - Couldbe Yue

“Reality is what it is, not what you want it to be.” - Frank Zappa
Tris is offline   Reply With Quote
1 User Said Thanks:
Old 05-19-2017, 08:59 PM   #33 (permalink)
Miss Congeniality
 
Soda Sullivan's Avatar
Dressed up like a car crash
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 2,691
My Mood:
Client: Black Dragon, FS, SL Viewer
Quote:
Originally Posted by eighthdwarf Checchinato View Post
The intuitive UI of V1
Are you high? In 2017, anything with a pie menu is far from intuitive.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tris View Post
The only point i really, REALLY agree with you is the missing Lastnames. That was a mistake!
Such a big mistake. A simple solution would have gone like this:

User, "Hey, I would like to change my name."
Linden Lab, "Nope."

What I don't understand, and Penny kind of touched on this, but why do the first places that a visitor to SL arrives always look like crap? I can understand not wanting to drop them in a severely graphic intensive environment, but you can't tell me that LL, or the many artist in SL that they could partner up with, could not produce something better than what they are giving people. That said, i don't think anything would have satisfied the particular couple in the video. They came in wanting to hate it and mock it, so they got what they wanted.

Last edited by Soda Sullivan; 05-19-2017 at 09:16 PM.
Soda Sullivan is offline   Reply With Quote
1 User Hugged You:
2 Users Said Thanks :
Old 05-20-2017, 08:13 PM   #34 (permalink)
Oddly Controversial
 
Penny Patton's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Here and there. Kinda inbetween places now.
Posts: 4,728
My Mood:
SL Join Date: 11/30/2005
Business: Retired
No one is going to argue V2 was anything but a trainwreck, but the SL client needed a UI update. It still does, if you ask me. My impression has always been that LL knows they need to fix a lot regarding SL, they just rarely have any idea what needs to be fixed, how to prioritize the needs, and they never, ever seem to realize what they need to do to fix the problems, which is why so many of their attempts to improve SL just make things worse.

The UI needed to be improved. After some missteps and a lot of wasted money they managed to finally produce a marginally improved UI that only really succeeds in making the SL client look less like it was developed by two guys in a garage in the 90's. It's a little less clunky, the menus are slightly easier to navigate, but it's still not good and this will continue to hurt new user retention.

The old last name system was great in that in lead to a more social approach to names. Avatar names sounded less like AOL screen names and more like people names. But it had problems. A lot of people didn't like being forced into a set last name. I'm sure plenty of people scrolled through the last name list, didn't see any they liked, and decided to put off joining SL, some indefinitely. On top of that, being unable to change names for any reason was frustrating. I agree that LL keeping last names in addition to introducing display names would have been a better move than what they did but I'm glad the display name feature exists and think they would have been better received if LL hadn't bungled their introduction.

Quote:
By making it more difficult to build, edit, etc? It seems that, since the introduction of mesh, the new target group of SL has become the pure consumers. I think it would have been great to have a tool built-in that changes prim builds into mesh automatically.
So, you're arguing that LL has "dumbed down" content creation by making it more difficult? I agree that LL has made missteps with content creation and how they rolled out mesh, not to mention failing to continue support for developing easy to grasp in-world building tools, but that is not "dumbing down". Making things more difficult for no reason is quite possibly the opposite of dumbing down.

Quote:
Anything that just requires ticking a box instead of actively doing something is a "dumbing down". I think they should have kept the age verification - and the AR category "Minors on theMain Grid", too.
First off, no. "Dumbing down" means removing end user options for an oversimplified experience in an attempt to appeal to a broader market.

I'm old and crotchety enough to agree that SL is better without kids mucking things up but I feel LL approached this whole subject the wrong way from the start. I would have had a public grid and a grid you could only access if you were 18 or older and had payment info on file. Basically separating PG and Adult content like LL attempted to do after it was too late.

Quote:
No, it isn't. Designated Newbie Areas - with Mentors and newbie helpers - are basically gone, with a few exceptions. Instead there is this awful Starter Island (or, has been a couple months ago when I created my latest alt) where you have that awful game-like "experience" which earns you fake L$ on each new "achievement".

I don't argue that LL should be showing off all of the features SL has to offer. I fully agree to you here - but does it have to be with such a stupid game?
I mean, nothing against games - but for *me* it's either SL, or playing a game. Not both.
Again, those are newbie areas, you just don't like them. The old system with Mentors was...imperfect and did not scale well. I'd agree it probably worked a helluva lot better than the current system, and I'd even agree that SL has probably dropped so much in new user sign ups that they could probably feasibly return to the mentor system, but that wasn't true at the height of SL's popularity, which is why they dropped the mentor system to begin with.

And no, it doesn't have to be such a stupid game. You're absolutely right on that count. The current "awful, game-like experience" you describe and the Linden Realms game they set up are both cases where LL had the right idea, but then executed it poorly. A part of that is LL not giving full support to the development of the features they're trying to show off.

I love the Experience tools LL gave us, they're a huge improvement over the complete lack of such tools they are replacing, but they suffer from crippling restrictions and poor design, like all of SL's content tools. LL's policy for developing features has always been "the blind leading the blind". "Let's hire people who would never, in a million years, be interested in using these tools and features to develop these tools and features. And let's ignore any and all input from our target audience."
Penny Patton is offline   Reply With Quote
2 Users Agreed:
Old 05-20-2017, 08:27 PM   #35 (permalink)
DILLIGAFF
 
WolfEyes's Avatar
Society's Lost Bird
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 11,127
SL Join Date: April 2004
Quote:
Originally Posted by Penny Patton View Post
No one is going to argue V2 was anything but a trainwreck, but the SL client needed a UI update. It still does, if you ask me. My impression has always been that LL knows they need to fix a lot regarding SL, they just rarely have any idea what needs to be fixed, how to prioritize the needs, and they never, ever seem to realize what they need to do to fix the problems, which is why so many of their attempts to improve SL just make things worse.

The UI needed to be improved. After some missteps and a lot of wasted money they managed to finally produce a marginally improved UI that only really succeeds in making the SL client look less like it was developed by two guys in a garage in the 90's. It's a little less clunky, the menus are slightly easier to navigate, but it's still not good and this will continue to hurt new user retention.

The old last name system was great in that in lead to a more social approach to names. Avatar names sounded less like AOL screen names and more like people names. But it had problems. A lot of people didn't like being forced into a set last name. I'm sure plenty of people scrolled through the last name list, didn't see any they liked, and decided to put off joining SL, some indefinitely. On top of that, being unable to change names for any reason was frustrating. I agree that LL keeping last names in addition to introducing display names would have been a better move than what they did but I'm glad the display name feature exists and think they would have been better received if LL hadn't bungled their introduction.


So, you're arguing that LL has "dumbed down" content creation by making it more difficult? I agree that LL has made missteps with content creation and how they rolled out mesh, not to mention failing to continue support for developing easy to grasp in-world building tools, but that is not "dumbing down". Making things more difficult for no reason is quite possibly the opposite of dumbing down.



First off, no. "Dumbing down" means removing end user options for an oversimplified experience in an attempt to appeal to a broader market.

I'm old and crotchety enough to agree that SL is better without kids mucking things up but I feel LL approached this whole subject the wrong way from the start. I would have had a public grid and a grid you could only access if you were 18 or older and had payment info on file. Basically separating PG and Adult content like LL attempted to do after it was too late.



Again, those are newbie areas, you just don't like them. The old system with Mentors was...imperfect and did not scale well. I'd agree it probably worked a helluva lot better than the current system, and I'd even agree that SL has probably dropped so much in new user sign ups that they could probably feasibly return to the mentor system, but that wasn't true at the height of SL's popularity, which is why they dropped the mentor system to begin with.

And no, it doesn't have to be such a stupid game. You're absolutely right on that count. The current "awful, game-like experience" you describe and the Linden Realms game they set up are both cases where LL had the right idea, but then executed it poorly. A part of that is LL not giving full support to the development of the features they're trying to show off.

I love the Experience tools LL gave us, they're a huge improvement over the complete lack of such tools they are replacing, but they suffer from crippling restrictions and poor design, like all of SL's content tools. LL's policy for developing features has always been "the blind leading the blind". "Let's hire people who would never, in a million years, be interested in using these tools and features to develop these tools and features. And let's ignore any and all input from our target audience."


Reminds me of EA Games and The Sims games. At least 2 of the LL CEOs came from EA. That should tell people something.
__________________
This is the truth.
Mitakuye oyasin.
To all my relations, keep dancing.
Believe or you will not see.
WolfEyes is offline   Reply With Quote
2 Users Agreed:
Old 05-20-2017, 08:42 PM   #36 (permalink)
Oddly Controversial
 
Penny Patton's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Here and there. Kinda inbetween places now.
Posts: 4,728
My Mood:
SL Join Date: 11/30/2005
Business: Retired
Quote:
Originally Posted by Soda Sullivan View Post
What I don't understand, and Penny kind of touched on this, but why do the first places that a visitor to SL arrives always look like crap? I can understand not wanting to drop them in a severely graphic intensive environment, but you can't tell me that LL, or the many artist in SL that they could partner up with, could not produce something better than what they are giving people.
The issue is that LL doesn't hire artists with that intent. LL themselves don't have anyone on staff who understands these issues. Philip Linden bragged in an interview that LL doesn't hire content creators, they only make the tools. So the people creating the new user environments are working without the skills, tools, or oversight they need to create good looking, well optimized starter areas.

And it's not just artists, they also fail to hire developers who can craft experiences such as the tutorials that are supposed to introduce users to SL's controls and features.

Quote:
That said, i don't think anything would have satisfied the particular couple in the video. They came in wanting to hate it and mock it, so they got what they wanted.
You might be right, but LL paints a huge target on their back. Every little bit of criticism those two gave about SL is spot on.

And these are not small issues. These are issues that LL should be legitimately embarrassed about. SL as a whole, from the new user experience to the content creation tools, is so lacking in polish, so riddled with embarrassingly bad design choices, that it is nothing short of a miracle that they've managed to stay in business this long. They're like the kid in your high school art class who could draw better than all of the other kids, but then decided they were awesome and never improved beyond that. Then somehow they got a job with Marvel comics where they got undeservedly popular for a few years a decade ago, but since then everyone in the world has been pointing and laughing, and questioning how they ever got into the business in the first place when they were making such obvious mistakes. Yes, LL is the Rob Liefeld of MMO developers.

Except I think that might actually be an insult to Liefeld.
Penny Patton is offline   Reply With Quote
1 User Agreed:
Old 05-21-2017, 09:12 AM   #37 (permalink)
Just call me Beth
 
Aribeth Zelin's Avatar
Singing along with old music
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Out in the mists
Posts: 8,467
My Mood:
SL Join Date: Oct 4 2009
Business: Moondrops ; Tempus Fugit; Faerycat Designs; sPunk
Client: Firestorm
Quote:
Originally Posted by WolfEyes View Post
Reminds me of EA Games and The Sims games. At least 2 of the LL CEOs came from EA. That should tell people something.
Was it two? I knew Humble had, because I remember when he showed up in sims 2? near the end to give you a nice shiny computer to get you psyched up for the next incarnation.

Anyway, yeah, The Sims could be so awesome, but they keep screwing it up somehow. Sims 4 is neat in a couple of ways, but also backwards from 3, and in some ways 3 was backwards from 2 and so forth.
__________________

Aribeth Zelin is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 05-21-2017, 11:27 AM   #38 (permalink)
DILLIGAFF
 
WolfEyes's Avatar
Society's Lost Bird
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 11,127
SL Join Date: April 2004
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aribeth Zelin View Post
Was it two? I knew Humble had, because I remember when he showed up in sims 2? near the end to give you a nice shiny computer to get you psyched up for the next incarnation.

Anyway, yeah, The Sims could be so awesome, but they keep screwing it up somehow. Sims 4 is neat in a couple of ways, but also backwards from 3, and in some ways 3 was backwards from 2 and so forth.
If they had just rolled the best of 2 and the best of 3 into 4 along with the best of 4 they would have really had something. As it is they are already working on 5 so there will be even less effort put into 4 for a shorter time period than they invested in 3. Kind of like how LL has been spending less effort on SL because of Sansar.


Humble was one, and I was thinking Ebbe Altberg, the current CEO, is the other. Maybe not though. I had read somewhere back when Ebbe taking charge was announced that Ebbe had worked at EA at one time but I can't find it now. Closest thing I could find was this on Wikipedia:

Quote:
The company, founded in 1999, employs numerous established high-tech veterans, including former executives from Electronic Arts, eBay, Disney, Adobe, and Apple.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linden_Lab

So, maybe not Ebbe but there definitely are/were ex EA execs employed by LL, not just Humble. Which explains a lot of the similarities between LL incompetence and EA incompetence. The same people and the same kinds of problems. You would think that LL aka Linden Research would get a clue.


ETA: I wish Maxis had never become an EA subsidiary. That was when it started going downhill. EA has been a major part of the problem all along.
__________________
This is the truth.
Mitakuye oyasin.
To all my relations, keep dancing.
Believe or you will not see.

Last edited by WolfEyes; 05-21-2017 at 11:36 AM.
WolfEyes is offline   Reply With Quote
2 Users Agreed:
Old 05-21-2017, 02:16 PM   #39 (permalink)
Just call me Beth
 
Aribeth Zelin's Avatar
Singing along with old music
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Out in the mists
Posts: 8,467
My Mood:
SL Join Date: Oct 4 2009
Business: Moondrops ; Tempus Fugit; Faerycat Designs; sPunk
Client: Firestorm
Quote:
Originally Posted by WolfEyes View Post
If they had just rolled the best of 2 and the best of 3 into 4 along with the best of 4 they would have really had something. As it is they are already working on 5 so there will be even less effort put into 4 for a shorter time period than they invested in 3. Kind of like how LL has been spending less effort on SL because of Sansar.

ETA: I wish Maxis had never become an EA subsidiary. That was when it started going downhill. EA has been a major part of the problem all along.
I just can't hit agree enough on this.
__________________

Aribeth Zelin is online now   Reply With Quote
1 User Said Thanks:
Old 05-22-2017, 01:20 AM   #40 (permalink)
Oddly Controversial
 
Penny Patton's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Here and there. Kinda inbetween places now.
Posts: 4,728
My Mood:
SL Join Date: 11/30/2005
Business: Retired
I'm really not convinced Sansar will be a hit for LL. Unless their attitudes towards presentation, polish and develpment have all changed dramatically they're not going to have an appealing product. SL captured lightning in a bottle by appealing to a market where there was a lot of demand and no supply, and they enjoyed a competition free position in that market ever since. LL can't count on riding that good fortune into Sansar.
Penny Patton is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-22-2017, 06:34 AM   #41 (permalink)
Miss Congeniality
 
Soda Sullivan's Avatar
Dressed up like a car crash
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 2,691
My Mood:
Client: Black Dragon, FS, SL Viewer
Quote:
Originally Posted by Penny Patton View Post
I'm really not convinced Sansar will be a hit for LL.
I guess that will all depend on how they try and define a "hit". I think they will ultimately find solid footing, but it is going to take a long, long time. After stating they would make it easy for people in SL to go to Sansar, they have pretty much done the exact opposite. That takes away a lot of what is practically a captive audience, at least one that would be willing to try Sansar out. That only leaves a lot of VR fans, which is still a fairly small market. It will grow as prices come down and functionality goes up, but that is a tough market to be betting the ranch on when everyone and their mom trying to capture that same market.

I think THAT is why they are improving SL. Not because the few left working on SL have some sort of "understanding" about how SL works, they don't. LL does knows it is going to need SL for a long time.
Soda Sullivan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-22-2017, 07:07 AM   #42 (permalink)
Senior Member
 
Wanda Belinda's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2016
Posts: 2,172
Who knows when they'll ever even open it up? They still have a press release on their site saying they expect it to open in 2016.


https://www.lindenlab.com/releases/l...sansar-testing
Wanda Belinda is offline   Reply With Quote
1 User Said Thanks:
Old 05-23-2017, 02:42 AM   #43 (permalink)
Oddly Controversial
 
Penny Patton's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Here and there. Kinda inbetween places now.
Posts: 4,728
My Mood:
SL Join Date: 11/30/2005
Business: Retired
Quote:
Originally Posted by Soda Sullivan View Post
I guess that will all depend on how they try and define a "hit". I think they will ultimately find solid footing, but it is going to take a long, long time.
I think there's a strong possibility Sansar might be a costly flop. Time will tell of course but without strong presentation, well designed tools for content creators, and an engaging user experience, I don't see Sansar generating much buzz. These are all areas LL has been weak in. These are all areas where they have made themselves weak by their own policies.

Quote:
I think THAT is why they are improving SL. Not because the few left working on SL have some sort of "understanding" about how SL works, they don't. LL does knows it is going to need SL for a long time.
Agreed.
Penny Patton is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-23-2017, 06:40 AM   #44 (permalink)
Ginger Supremacist
 
Ramen Jedburgh's Avatar
Heya ^_^
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Illinois, USA
Posts: 4,842
My Mood:
SL Join Date: 3/9/2006
Client: Firestorm
the lack of Buzz around Sansar right now feels like the real killer. I mean I barely see it mentioned outside of an SL setting and only see SL mentioned as in thinking it's a joke outside of SL.
__________________
--
Ramen Jedburgh

http://allaroundthegrid.blogspot.com/
Ramen Jedburgh is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-23-2017, 09:52 AM   #45 (permalink)
Easily Distracted
 
Sansarya's Avatar
Just Sans
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Rosebud
Posts: 2,773
My Mood:
SL Join Date: April 2005
Client: Official client
Blog Entries: 2
Quote:
Originally Posted by Penny Patton View Post
Specifically Gen Z? The reason these approaches are being adopted are because they work on pretty much everyone.

I'd point out that the conclusion we should draw from this isn't that these kids would love SL if it were simplified to an easy, game-like experience, but that most people would more easily discover more about SL, and potentially stick around far longer, if it had a more coherent new user experience and a lot of critical polish that LL has neglected since the beginning.
Eh, I didn't say anything about whether or not kids would love SL if it were easier. I said the video pointed out to me that teaching Gen Z today involves gamifying education. These approaches don't work on pretty much everyone, they work on a certain age group of people just now getting into college classrooms, where I teach. I have multi-generational classes of students. Gaming methods work on some of them, more traditional educational approaches work on some of them, with some a mix of both is good.
Sansarya is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-23-2017, 10:21 AM   #46 (permalink)
Lady of the House
 
Cristalle's Avatar
Hopeful
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 2,513
My Mood:
SL Join Date: December 1, 2006
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ramen Jedburgh View Post
the lack of Buzz around Sansar right now feels like the real killer. I mean I barely see it mentioned outside of an SL setting and only see SL mentioned as in thinking it's a joke outside of SL.
Honestly, my feeling is that VR is so esoteric that most people do not care. The equipment is expensive if you use anything other than Cardboard/Daydream/a smartphone. It's just something extra that has few applications outside gaming and the landscape of games for VR is still extremely small. It will take time for Sansar to take the lead, if it ever does, in the VR space.
Cristalle is offline   Reply With Quote
1 User Agreed:
Old 05-23-2017, 10:21 AM   #47 (permalink)
Senior Member
 
eighthdwarf Checchinato's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Germany
Posts: 4,811
My Mood:
SL Join Date: 2008/02/07
Client: Firestorm (in Phoenix Mode!), Cool VL Viewer
Gamifying education... *smh* What's not gamified nowadays?

What's so wrong about just plain old LEARNING?
__________________
Some cause happiness wherever they go; others, whenever they go. - Oscar Wilde
I would challenge you to a battle of wits, but I see you are unarmed! - (attributed to William Shakespeare)
eighthdwarf Checchinato is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-23-2017, 11:10 AM   #48 (permalink)
Teh Evol
 
Mister Ohshino's Avatar
Hailing HYDRA
 
Join Date: Apr 2014
Posts: 1,129
My Mood:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Penny Patton View Post
Not to mention the biggest issue, "I have no idea what I'm doing!" The things we love about SL are not readily apparent.
Such is the bane of any sandbox, and nearly all of them make the same mistake in that they try to appeal to a broader audience than they could possibly retain. For those that do stay, far more consume content rather than produce it. SL is little more than a dress up and 3D chat simulator to them. Attracting the creators is a tougher issue. There's communities of 3D artists, coders and such that won't touch SL because of how the Lab has handled IP issues or because they would rather use languages other than LSL, etc.
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by H.L. Mencken
Every normal man must be tempted, at times, to spit upon his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats.
Mister Ohshino is offline   Reply With Quote
2 Users Agreed:
Old 05-23-2017, 11:20 AM   #49 (permalink)
Owner, Willowdale Estate

*SLU Supporter*
 
Imagin Illyar's Avatar
I'm always happy to help :)
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Laniakea
Posts: 275
My Mood:
SL Join Date: February 2008
Business: Willowdale Estate
Client: Firestorm
I agree that their success depends on attracting creators. I'm not convinced that LL is as concerned about attracting current SL users as they are about getting the next generation of users though. And that might be a smart move for them considering the average age of users in SL is higher than most any other platform.

I've tried Sansar, High Fidelity and Space and of the three I think Sansar has the most potential. All three are catering to creators but in very different ways.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Mister Ohshino View Post
Such is the bane of any sandbox, and nearly all of them make the same mistake in that they try to appeal to a broader audience than they could possibly retain. For those that do stay, far more consume content rather than produce it. SL is little more than a dress up and 3D chat simulator to them. Attracting the creators is a tougher issue. There's communities of 3D artists, coders and such that won't touch SL because of how the Lab has handled IP issues or because they would rather use languages other than LSL, etc.
Imagin Illyar is offline   Reply With Quote
1 User Said Thanks:
Old 05-23-2017, 02:16 PM   #50 (permalink)
It's me.

*SLU Supporter*
 
Sid II's Avatar
Just another muppet.
 
Join Date: Jun 2015
Location: The Netherlands.
Posts: 1,117
SL Join Date: March 2007
Client: Official browser
Quote:
Originally Posted by Penny Patton View Post
I'm really not convinced Sansar will be a hit for LL. Unless their attitudes towards presentation, polish and develpment have all changed dramatically they're not going to have an appealing product. SL captured lightning in a bottle by appealing to a market where there was a lot of demand and no supply, and they enjoyed a competition free position in that market ever since. LL can't count on riding that good fortune into Sansar.
Sansar really has to be something outstanding compared to SL, if they want to lure me in one more time.
Sid II is online now   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On




SEO by vBSEO