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Old 04-16-2017, 11:09 PM   #1 (permalink)
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Of Men and Giants and Giants RPing Men

Ok, so over the years there have been more and more RP sims that encourage smaller, to-scale, avatars. Doomed Ship was probably the first, followed by Amazon Rainforest, Mjolka Kyr, Revenland, Minotaur Empire, and a whole bunch of others I don't recall the names of offhand.

In these sims I've found most of the human women are typical human sizes. The environments (furniture et all) is scaled to human sizes. And yet, by and large, most of the "regular human men" in these sims tend to be 8' tall. Sure, there's a few exceptionally tall women, it is SL afterall, but for the most part it's the guys who are the holdouts.

Why?

Keep in mind, this is not a general "why are there giant avatars in SL?", it's a more a "given that so many women have scaled down and there's so many RP sims now encouraging to-scale avatars, and these are sims where people are specifically encouraged to make their avatar look how their character looks, why is is that men, universally, seem to be the holdouts?"
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Old 04-16-2017, 11:35 PM   #2 (permalink)
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It might be the person behind the avatar's vision of what their idealized man would be, and to hell with the RP rules. That, or their fingers spontaneously broke when reaching for the height slider.
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Old 04-16-2017, 11:40 PM   #3 (permalink)
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Old 04-16-2017, 11:48 PM   #4 (permalink)
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See, whenever I see these students doing surveys so they can write a thesis on SL, I think this is the sort of thing they should be focusing on.
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Old 04-16-2017, 11:52 PM   #5 (permalink)
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Maybe they're all ex-World of Warcraft players.
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Old 04-17-2017, 12:58 AM   #6 (permalink)
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Standing tall pays off, study finds



Human Height Is Positively Related to Interpersonal Dominance in Dyadic Interactions

It really isn't that surprising, to me, that guys max out their height in SL. As a 6'+ person in RL myself, I've been very conscious (even envious) of the few people taller than me, and how other people seem much more inclined to respond to them as if they were natural "winners/leaders". I certainly felt like I benefited from that bias in my career.
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Old 04-17-2017, 01:30 AM   #7 (permalink)
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The size differences in SL make those look reasonable.



Here's my 7'4" minotaur avatar next to a pair of women, 5'7" and 5'8" respectively. Let's say the human women are the size of the Draenei woman. The Draenei guy would still only come up to my shoulder.

Now remember that most of the "human men" I'm seeing in these RP sims are larger than that. You can make a male avatar in SL up to just shy of 9' tall, and a lot of guys do. And that's not even getting into the beastman avatars.

Actually, here's a better screenshot of the WoW models with the heights and a maxed out SL avatar superimposed into the picture.



Actually, now that I think of it, I believe that particular mesh body uses deformers to be larger, so it could probably be over 9' if it were maxed out.

I also added a woman avatar to the picture. It's getting far more common to see SL women that are between 5' and 5'10", propped up to at or just over 6' by heels and toe-tip feet.

Last edited by Penny Patton; 04-17-2017 at 12:28 PM. Reason: Updated image to include an SL woman avatar at what is becoming a more common size for SL woman.
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Old 04-17-2017, 02:00 AM   #8 (permalink)
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The size differences in SL make those look reasonable.
Sure, but WoW avoids the issue by not actually giving the player any control over height. It'd be interesting to see a similar study in other MMOs. I don't have any supporting data but my gut feeling is that they probably see similar slider abuse. Jopsy's observation rings very true to me.
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Old 04-17-2017, 02:14 AM   #9 (permalink)
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Sure, but WoW avoids the issue by not actually giving the player any control over height. It'd be interesting to see a similar study in other MMOs. I don't have any supporting data but my gut feeling is that they probably see similar slider abuse. Jopsy's observation rings very true to me.
Oh, I agree with Jopsy's observation as a general trend, but I still firmly believe that there's multiple factors exacerbating the issue in SL. Such as the fact that the LL viewer still misreports height, telling people they're much shorter than they actually are. And the fact that the starter avatars for men are all around 7' tall.

And there were two MMOs which did give players control over their height.
City of Heroes

and Champions Online

Both seemed to have a variety of heights, rather than all the men simply maxing themselves out. Of course, it's difficult to tell from the screenshots online. I would be very interested to see the actual numbers, but I doubt they'll ever be available.
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Old 04-17-2017, 02:50 AM   #10 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Penny Patton View Post
I still firmly believe that there's multiple factors exacerbating the issue in SL. Such as the fact that the LL viewer still misreports height, telling people they're much shorter than they actually are. And the fact that the starter avatars for men are all around 7' tall.
The vast majority of players use Firestorm, which while it still underreports height when compared to doing the prim ruler thing, is accurate enough for government work. With regards to the camera angle, that may have some affect but I'm not sure. Roleplayers tend to move their camera about when at rest, looking for more cinematic angles while the craft paragraphs and take screenshots. I think most people only see the default angle* when they're moving. Finally as you note, this is mostly an issue with male avatars. Female avatars tend not to be too ridiculously tall, unless being so is part of the character. Male avatars on the other hand, tend towards the oversized even when surrounded by normal sized women.

Honestly, I really think the issue here is substantially psychological.
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Old 04-17-2017, 12:08 PM   #11 (permalink)
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I think you misunderstand me. I agree that it is substantially psychological, but I also believe, in addition to that, decisions by LL have fed into it.

Without these bad design decisions, I believe giant men would be common but probably not even the majority (since another psychological factor is wanting to fit in) and probably not to the extreme maxed out heights we commonly see. With the bad decisions it's become pretty much 100% all men all the time.
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Old 04-17-2017, 12:58 PM   #12 (permalink)
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I recently joined another RP sim, and while I'm loving the sim, their roles for the orc race say that they have to be minimum 9ft tall. I actually used that body you show here, but no way in hell can I get it to 9ft tall. Maybe I'm bad at maxing the sliders, since I made him just shy of 8 ft and that's as tall as I manage to make him without making him look like slenderman (and since he's an orc he still has to look stocky and muscular) Since he's a foot short I decided to RP him as an orc with dwarfism, but hope the mods will accept my suggestion to open up the size for orcs a bit more.



Usually prefer to make my orcs around the size you'd see a half orc be in D&D or Pathfinder (up to 6ft10 is considered normal there). But it sucks when you go RP with another guy and he's supposed to reach only up to your shoulders, but visually he's 2 heads talller than you are.

Honestly, I am fine with people roleplaying 8 to 9 ft tall guys. But at least roleplay them as that length. Don't make a 9ft tall human and then RP him as if he's somehow average/normal.

An example that ACTUALLY happened to me:

* roleplaying an NBA player. Made the shape to actually be close to what it would be. Prim sized an exact 6ft9
* redhead comes in who's close to 8ft tall
* she starts calling me shortie
* find out she's rping her character as 5 fucking ft tall.

That's one time I bowed out an RP.

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Old 04-17-2017, 01:03 PM   #13 (permalink)
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Oh, I agree with Jopsy's observation as a general trend, but I still firmly believe that there's multiple factors exacerbating the issue in SL. Such as the fact that the LL viewer still misreports height, telling people they're much shorter than they actually are. And the fact that the starter avatars for men are all around 7' tall.

And there were two MMOs which did give players control over their height.
City of Heroes

and Champions Online

Both seemed to have a variety of heights, rather than all the men simply maxing themselves out. Of course, it's difficult to tell from the screenshots online. I would be very interested to see the actual numbers, but I doubt they'll ever be available.
GW2 also gives control over height. I've always had the impression that quite a large amount have it set to max, but it's hard to tell if it was a definite majority. I don't think so though. The thing is also, if you play those MMOs, the limits to their sliders, you know even if you max out you still look the way you should. Sliders in SL have such extreme maximums that I think people just adjust their style from MMOs without thinking it though

IMO a big QoL improvement for SL2.0 would be if they had the sliders set to regular human limits at first. But with an 'advanced' or 'nonhuman' toggle that you can click on to unlock the full sliders.

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Old 04-17-2017, 02:16 PM   #14 (permalink)
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Honestly, I am fine with people roleplaying 8 to 9 ft tall guys. But at least roleplay them as that length. Don't make a 9ft tall human and then RP him as if he's somehow average/normal.

An example that ACTUALLY happened to me:

* roleplaying an NBA player. Made the shape to actually be close to what it would be. Prim sized an exact 6ft9
* redhead comes in who's close to 8ft tall
* she starts calling me shortie
* find out she's rping her character as 5 fucking ft tall.

That's one time I bowed out an RP.
Gaby was intended to be almost inhumanly tall originally. I made her 7ft tall. I've shortened her since, she's now 6'5" but even then she was short in many places.

Thing is my arms were too short in those days. They're at 95% now so I'm near maximum size without going to shortarm territory. That also has effects upon thickness too. A lot of mesh tops will not fit because at my height the arms look like noodles.

Just more scaling issues.
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Old 04-17-2017, 03:53 PM   #15 (permalink)
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I always wonder about those couples you see where the dude is 8ft and his gf barely reaches his waist.
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Old 04-17-2017, 04:10 PM   #16 (permalink)
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Where's the uproar about giants raping men?? Double standard much?? Just goes to show the hypocrisy of feminism today!!!

Trump 2020: Nerf Giants

whos with me men!1

(p.s. where is giant-raping sims plz)
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Old 04-17-2017, 04:53 PM   #17 (permalink)
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I always wonder about those couples you see where the dude is 8ft and his gf barely reaches his waist.
Halflings are a legit fetish?

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(p.s. where is giant-raping sims plz)
Need me to send you some LMs?
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Old 04-17-2017, 06:34 PM   #18 (permalink)
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The thing is also, if you play those MMOs, the limits to their sliders, you know even if you max out you still look the way you should. Sliders in SL have such extreme maximums that I think people just adjust their style from MMOs without thinking it though
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Thing is my arms were too short in those days. They're at 95% now so I'm near maximum size without going to shortarm territory. That also has effects upon thickness too. A lot of mesh tops will not fit because at my height the arms look like noodles.

Just more scaling issues.
Yeah, the appearance editor has a lot of weird proportion issues. You can be anywhere from 4' tall to almost 9' tall in SL, but if you want human proportions you're limited to about 5' to 6'6". Anything beyond that and you're forced to make compromises on your proportions.

LL gave women shorter arms than men and men shorter legs than women. Why? Because they're LL. So at about 6'-6'6" women need that arm slider maxed out just to have proportionate arms. If you're taller than that you begin to reach t-rex territory even with maxed out arms. Men, with their longer man-arms (seriously LL, wtf?) can get to full height with proportionate arms. I don't recall if men's shorter maximum leg length presents a proportion issue.

Whether you're a man or a woman, however, over about 6'6" your head will be too small. The taller you go from there, the smaller your head will be even with head size maxed out. LL thinks we want to be Mario Bro. movie goombas apparently.

Quote:
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IMO a big QoL improvement for SL2.0 would be if they had the sliders set to regular human limits at first. But with an 'advanced' or 'nonhuman' toggle that you can click on to unlock the full sliders.
I've been suggesting the same thing for years. I even suggested it in a design doc Rod Humble asked me to put together. (I never heard back after this request, not even a thank-you, but there was a marked improvement in starter avatar proportions so I guess they did end up using it.)

I've always felt that, if LL were smart, yes you'd be able to make giant avatars but male and female bodies would have the same limits. So you could be a 9' man or a 9' woman. Arbitrarily forcing women to be shorter seemed...oddly misogynistic for LL. But I chalk it up to thoughtlessness. The shorter arms on women...I have no idea. There's not understanding proportions, and then there's just making shit up. Anyway, if I were designing an appearance editor, not only would you be able to achieve basic human proportions at the maximum sizes, but you'd also be able to extend past those proportions to have exceptionally long arms or a big head, so you could achieve some classic exaggerated proportions, like a huge giant of a man with ape-like long arms, or a tiny, chibi, character with a huge head.

This way residents could use those size extremes without being forced into bad, malformed bodies, but also not limited to a regular human shape. This just makes sense to me and I'm not sure what LL was thinking, if they were thinking at all.
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Old 04-17-2017, 10:46 PM   #19 (permalink)
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I like how taller guys look, so I tend to leave my avatar in the 6'2" range, so that they look taller when I'm standing near them.

People that slam the scale slider all the way up though? It doesn't make people -look- bigger unless you have someone next to them for comparison. It's like thinking that sitting closer to your monitor is going to make the people displayed on it look taller. It doesn't.

When I want my avatar to look titanically large, I mess with the proportions. Longer legs, longer abdominal area, longer neck. Head scale more appropriate for a shorter avatar.

Conversely, if I want my avatar to really look short, I scale the head up slightly. Not so much as to appear 'dwarfish' but close.
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Old 04-17-2017, 11:47 PM   #20 (permalink)
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Shapes and helping with them has long been my specialty, and over the years I have noticed many things. Here are some of them in no particular order.

These days it's common enough for female avatars to be in the realistic height range, even if their asses keep getting larger, and arms just as short as always, the average female height is becoming significantly more realistic all around than it used to be.

The same cannot be said for male avatars, there has been almost no improvement. I will say it bluntly, male shapes that are not 7'+ and otherwise terrible (huge shoulders, short arms, tiny head) are one of the rarest things in Second Life. This also goes for avatars played by men, the type of guy making a typical beefcake will also make a 7' tall generic slut wannabe avatar. I have seen it time and time again.

A disproportionate amount of the realistic height, top notch quality male avatars I've seen (perfectly fit attachments, original look, great proportions, etc.) have been made by women, gay men, FtM trans, or guys with a feminine side of sorts (who often makes great female avatars). Statistically, straight biological males create the worst shapes. Take that as you will, but it is something I've noticed, and trust me, due to the rarity of such well made male avatars, it is easy to take notice of certain patterns. My theory is that there's something about certain types of people having the ability to mentally register, and care about, some things more so than others.

Guys in the interracial scene wanting to be TOUGH THUG GHETTO GANGSTAS consistently manage to create the absolute worst shapes imagininable. They are seriously in a tier of their own. That said, the women in this scene also consistently manage to create the absolute worst shapes imagininable.

From things I've noticed, to conversations I've had, it comes down to the average guy wanting to be bigger than everyone, especially other guys. Hell, I knew a guy who would actually switch from a realistic scaled shape to a larger shape when he would be around other men. It was throughly retarded.

TLDR: SL men be like, "I GOTTA BE THE BIGGEST DUDE AROUND."

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Old 04-18-2017, 04:09 AM   #21 (permalink)
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Just want to add that I noticed the height difference between male and female avatars. Females moving toward realistic height.

It is absolutely not a roleplay sim effect either. I used to see a couple posting fashion in Iheartsl already 2 years ago. She was so small that she stood on a crate in every picture, and then she reached his shoulders, or this chin if she ad superhigh heels.

I haven't seen their posts in a while. Maybe they quit.

On the other hand, when I scale down my male alts, I actually feel a bit unconfortable when my male alt stand between two supertall ones. I can't reduce my alts down to RL height. So it is just not RL men who feel like they need to be taller.

My female avatars is not my RL height either, 167 cm (I am too lazy to convert it to your numbers). They are more model height, 180 cm and a bit taller, 190 cm maybe. I am not logged in at the moment. I used to be average in SL. Now I am more in the 1/3 upper female population, but still when I stand next to a "brazilian" female, I barely reach her shoulders.

My males is 220 - 230 cm. Much because females is in heels all the time, that add 10 - 15 cm to their height. Just what I feel, I have not done research.
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Old 04-18-2017, 11:31 AM   #22 (permalink)
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Old 04-21-2017, 11:56 PM   #23 (permalink)
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I met a fellow today who complained a lot about how all the women these days come up to his bellybutton. I suggested if all of the women are smaller and he wanted women his size maybe he should make his avatar smaller. "I'm not going to change my avatar for them. This realistic size thing is just a fad."

For the record, I'm not the one who brought the topic up, either. He was just commenting on the women in the sims he's been going to.

Ironically, this was while he was showing me a store where one could buy sex furniture for 12-15' monster avatars. You know, instead of being an 8-9'tall midget and using all of the existing sex furniture that is already out there.
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Old 04-22-2017, 12:25 AM   #24 (permalink)
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He sounds like a massive cocksocket.
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Old 04-22-2017, 02:27 AM   #25 (permalink)
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instead of being an 8-9'tall midget and using all of the existing sex furniture that is already out there.
I do need more furniture that scales well with the Vitruvian dwarf shape actually (obv not 8-9 ft, but it fits the midget descriptor). Being a midget guy makes it not easy to get laid, even if the way I made my dwarf look makes him pretty popular in some fantasy sims, the difficulty is getting the animations right. I find a lot of the furniture these days doesn't really care about the real size of your avatars, it only cares about the relative scale. Like, it expects the guy to be 1-3 ft taller than the woman. more difference or opposite difference than that and you get the most issues.
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