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Old 03-02-2016, 04:31 AM   #1 (permalink)
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D/s, Gor etc. just a replacement for family values?

I was not sure whether to post it in SL General or here - but well, here we go.
In a discussion this statement has been made:

Quote:
Many people in Second Life seek out the D/s Lifestyle in various forms, like Gor, Story of O, or as a collared relationship - Owner and sub - instead of 'partners'. This is related maybe to the blurring of traditional family values in RL, where the man leads and the woman is the strong backup in the family.
I am not sure yet what to make of it and am interested in your opinion.
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Old 03-02-2016, 04:51 AM   #2 (permalink)
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i wonder why the assumption is that D/s relationships are male/female and male lead? What about relationships where there isn't a male at all? or only males?

i guess in gor this is true that male-lead is what there is, but i don't tend to see gor as an actual realistic D/s relationship. At best i see is as fantasy-D/s-roleplay.

i'm not involved in D/s in SL, but in real life i am and go to events. And in real life i see just as many female-lead/female-Top relationships with male-Bottoms. i see plenty of f/f and m/m relationships as well as relationships where people don't identify with traditional gender roles at all. i just don't see the overwhelming male-Top situation the person you quoted describe.

So i guess that's my long (typing on a cellphone) way of saying i disagree with the person you're quoting.. it seems to me that person already has a personal biased towards traditional male-lead dynamics. and so they only notices D/s relationships that tend towards what they already think is normal rather than seeing the wider variety of positions of power that happen in D/s.

certainly a m/m relationship isn't about trying to get back to "traditional heteronormative family values", nor are f/f relationships, or female-Top/male-Bottom ones, nor ones involving people who don't even subscribe to gender roles.
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Old 03-02-2016, 05:31 AM   #3 (permalink)
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i guess in gor this is true that male-lead is what there is, but i don't tend to see gor as an actual realistic D/s relationship. At best i see is as fantasy-D/s-roleplay.
My first experience with Gor wasn't actually in SL or any other online environment. It was in a BDSM club. I know several RL couples who have been together for years and who describe their relationship dynamic as "Gorean Lifestyle"... of course they don't run around with medieval garb and weapons in their daily life (though coincidentally or not, a very high percentage of them are also into historical re-enactment), and they don't fly around on huge insects either.

That said, as long as all partners are in full agreement about the power dynamic, whatever. Equal treatment is not barging in to force all women to take a Top role, whether they want it or not.
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Old 03-02-2016, 06:06 AM   #4 (permalink)
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i agree that no one should be forced into any role they don't want to be in (unless that's their kink... but then in that case i guess it's not really force).
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Old 03-02-2016, 08:34 AM   #5 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hana View Post
i wonder why the assumption is that D/s relationships are male/female and male lead? What about relationships where there isn't a male at all? or only males?

i guess in gor this is true that male-lead is what there is, but i don't tend to see gor as an actual realistic D/s relationship. At best i see is as fantasy-D/s-roleplay.

i'm not involved in D/s in SL, but in real life i am and go to events. And in real life i see just as many female-lead/female-Top relationships with male-Bottoms. i see plenty of f/f and m/m relationships as well as relationships where people don't identify with traditional gender roles at all. i just don't see the overwhelming male-Top situation the person you quoted describe.

So i guess that's my long (typing on a cellphone) way of saying i disagree with the person you're quoting.. it seems to me that person already has a personal biased towards traditional male-lead dynamics. and so they only notices D/s relationships that tend towards what they already think is normal rather than seeing the wider variety of positions of power that happen in D/s.

certainly a m/m relationship isn't about trying to get back to "traditional heteronormative family values", nor are f/f relationships, or female-Top/male-Bottom ones, nor ones involving people who don't even subscribe to gender roles.

I think you misread it Hana, YT's quote didn't say anything about who leads the D/s relationships. The only thing about gender was here: "This is related maybe to the blurring of traditional family values in RL, where the man leads and the woman is the strong backup in the family."

Only in traditional relationships did it mention the man leading.
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Old 03-02-2016, 10:35 AM   #6 (permalink)
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I doubt it.

I see way too many who have several dominants/subs.

One could as easily, if not more easily, argue it's a stand in for polyamory.
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Old 03-02-2016, 02:00 PM   #7 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Y.T. View Post
I was not sure whether to post it in SL General or here - but well, here we go.
In a discussion this statement has been made:

"Many people in Second Life seek out the D/s Lifestyle in various forms, like Gor, Story of O, or as a collared relationship - Owner and sub - instead of 'partners'. This is related maybe to the blurring of traditional family values in RL, where the man leads and the woman is the strong backup in the family."

I am not sure yet what to make of it and am interested in your opinion.
The statement YT is quoting is simple straight forward fairly sweeping statement and that's the problem. The issues are more complex.

My parents were married in the 1930's. At that time the woman wore a wedding ring and the man did not. The woman also promised to love and obey her husband while he promised to cherish her and take financial responsibility for the family. Although there had been some change, by the early to mid 60's "single ring" ceremonies and promises to "obey" were still pretty common. Double wedding ring ceremonies became the norm in the late 60's and 70's and the "obey" clause was gradually dropped until it became pretty rare in mainstream marriages by the end of the 70's.

*Some versions of D/s today, do seem somewhat comparable to the single ring, male marriages of the past. Pretty jewelry style, choker style collars (not slave collars) do have a similar romantic symbolism for some D/s couples today that the single wedding ring had for my parent's generation. The emphasis is on the word "some."

In the past the term "feminine" was commonly used to describe women who were soft, giving, demure, receptive etc. It was a gender based adjective rather than a personality/behavior based term and it fell out of use and has sort of been replaced in popular use by the word submissive. I do get the impression that some women who wold have been called & would have called themselves "feminine"are now funneled into the category "submissive," however the two really are not the same.

I think that there are a noticeable minority of women today who are seeking a traditionally masculine man, someone who is strong, decisive and will take the lead, but it is too simplistic to assume that what those women really want is a return to "traditional family values." Traditional family values is another way of saying a patriarchal social system where wives are legally treated as having fewer rights less autonomy, less legal standing than their husbands. There is a small minority of anti-feminist backlash women who do seek a return to traditional legal inferiority "family values" but that certainly is not what the typical female submissive in SL is seeking.

First of all, the typical SL RPer submissive is just exploring something that seems exciting. She may not desire anything close to that in RL or perhaps just is interested in "bedroom only" in real life. SL is a place where someone can safely explore and RP feelings without actually returning to a legal system defining women as second class citizens! Besides that many people involved in SL D/s role play see it as an exploration of power rather than an re exploration of traditional gender roles. It is invalid to make that assumption.

So I think the person being quoted sort of has a point:

1. *some women seeking Male Dom relationships in SL may very well be exploring the "traditionally "feminine" side of their personalities.
2. *some women may associate romantic thoughts of being possessed and loved by a strong masculine man similar to the feelings women may once have associated with with traditional wedding vows and traditional single ring ceremonies

But . . .

1.Not all people Rping D/s in SL are exploring tradition gender roles. There are other reasons to explore D/s that are not gender based.Do not equate "some" with all!
2. those that are choosing to explore re-claim traditional masculinity/femininity are *choosing to do so and reserve the right to choose to end or re-negociate the relationship.

It is wrong, false, an error in logic, poor judgement to make the false judgement that people exploring options in SL are actually seeking a return to rigid one rule fits all system like the so called "family values" perspective.

A logical look at the evidence suggests that sexuality, identity and emotions are complex, multi-dimensional, fluid, self directed, do not conform to political agendas and can not be forced into simplistic boxes.

Sorry for the long ranting post, but geesh it makes me mad one someone takes such a mysterious and complex of subject as sexuality and relationships and tells people he knows the one true answer and others need to conform. Life is complex. Learn to embrace and enjoy the complexity ;-)
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Old 03-02-2016, 06:27 PM   #8 (permalink)
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Old 03-02-2016, 09:36 PM   #9 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Y.T. View Post
I am not sure yet what to make of it and am interested in your opinion.
OK ...

"Many people in Second Life seek out the D/s Lifestyle in various forms, like Gor, Story of O, or as a collared relationship - Owner and sub - instead of 'partners'." [citation required]
If you look at my profile you will see my partner listed. Being in a D/s relation does not exclude being in a partnership. We are in this together for the long term.

"This is related maybe to the blurring of traditional family values in RL, where the man leads and the woman is the strong backup in the family." But then again maybe not. So it is basically the author's opinions. I see nothing wrong with that. I do not agree with those opinions but I do understand them.

But you, YT, asked for my opinion. Everything after the first comma seems to me to be based on a limited point of view. I don't know if it was intentional or not, but that's what I get out of it.
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Old 03-03-2016, 03:34 PM   #10 (permalink)
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This sounds like a christian-alarmist using SL as a slippery-slope example of what happens when you relax the traditional male-dominant paradigm. It is senseless to argue that is not the chief-paradigm: King-of-the-castle, it's a man's world, show her who's boss, ....

The upshot of the original quote put up for suggestion seems to suggest that when you relax that paradigm, abominations such as are found on SL flourish. If they flourish, they will spread to real life, and the apocolypse will be upon us!
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Old 03-05-2016, 10:58 AM   #11 (permalink)
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Without context, my first impression of the quote is either a guy trying to recruit/convince a woman who is hesitant to engage in Ds by packaging it as "family values" or a guy who got busted cheating on his spouse, or a small time political or religious leader who got caught engaging in certain activities in SL and is trying to spin it as wholesome, traditional or whatever else he needs to say to get out of a hot seat. Perhaps in whatever conversation or group it was said I would feel differently, but as a standalone my reaction is suspicion.

Norman, I believe, may have begun writing his Gorean novels as some sort of reaction or provocation to the early feminist movement, but you cant lump together all these forms of roleplay or relationships into a neat explanation, certainly not this one.

Now, there is a subset community of kinksters who enjoy the 1950s housewife play or lifestyle, but the broad brush in the quote doesn't ring true to me. As Robert explained, it's far more complicated abd nuanced about it.

For me, and I guess I'm referring more to real feelings and not characters in a story writing genre, but it's far less about family values as it is a nod to love, loyalty, commitment, openness and trust. I know you are scoffing, whips and love? Gorean slavery and openness? It is though. The couples or poly families I know who actively engage in such lifestyles as more than a Saturday night slap and tickle often have the deepest bonds I've ever seen and a level of open, honest, non judgemental communication that most traditional couples would be envious of. Many people in today's society struggle with trust issues, with being open, with fearing rejection if they share all those secret fantasies and the internet, SL and Gorean RP gives them a safe place to do that.

To allow someone to know you in that way, to be known so profoundly and accepted and cared for in such a vulnerable state is not something that can be simplified to the description of "family values". Not without raising questions and concerns about the speakers understanding of those bonds and reason for describing it as such which brings me back to my first paragraph i guess.
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Old 03-06-2016, 06:28 AM   #12 (permalink)
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Old 11-19-2016, 03:47 PM   #13 (permalink)
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Sounds to me like the guy settled on a convenient and overly hasty interpretation to support their own prejudice. This so common both from observers and participants to the culture, from the ones who believe it's something they identify with to the ones who see it as the punching bag they've always wanted.

EDIT: I feel the need to add a little more here. I came from a family with both parents in the military, and domestic tasks were considered survival skills that everyone needed to have. Though there's a division of labor, everyone can do everything that needs to be done, so when you see something that needs to be done, you get on it instead of waiting for someone else to do it. This to me is the definition of a family unit. To me this isn't inconsistent with the codes of conduct and responsibility that can go so conveniently overlooked in Gor. And to have domestic and relationship harmony, there does need to be an alpha, someone the final decisions and responsibility for them rest on. A difference of opinion can be uncomfortable, but differences in execution can be destructive.

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Old 02-13-2017, 08:31 AM   #14 (permalink)
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Just my own two cents... as a non-feminine sub? I have always had a real issue with the idea of all women are submissive, all men dominant, even if that's my own relationship's dynamic. And that seems to me what the OP's quote was saying.

Then again, I come from a family of very strong-willed females [and I'm one too], and even if my parents might have had a more or less 'traditional' marriage, if my dad had actually been king of the castle? We wouldn't have -had- a place to live. He was wonderful, and sweet, and kind - and utter crap with money. He also would never discipline us kids; that was left on my mom too.

Of course, my own biases might be framing how I'm reading the original quote.
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Old 02-13-2017, 09:59 AM   #15 (permalink)
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D/s does nothing for me, so I tend to ignore the whole gorean sub-culture stuff.... but what I have seen of that fantasy/fiction genre seems to present itself as non-consensual and typically male-dominated.

Power corrupts. 'Taditional family values' shift power towards males, gorean just takes the use/abuse of that power futher. I can easily see how someone could see a link between them, different milestones on the spectrum of partner subjugation.
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Old 02-13-2017, 01:36 PM   #16 (permalink)
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Almost everyone who has known us and known we were somewhat d/s has assumed she was the sub and I the dominant. Of course in this area that 'man is the head' thing is still quite common and they assume that I am the one in pants so I'm the dominant.

And yeah, power corrupts. She's gotten more than a few who've segued right into the old standbys too. "You don't have to settle" and "You can be weak without being a pushover" and such. They've learned not to go to "When you're ready for a real man" finally, at least not openly.

It's all just more dominionist bullshit whether home grown or sponsored.
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Old 02-13-2017, 02:32 PM   #17 (permalink)
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Most D/s culture seems to be more about who has the power than their sexual plumbing.... the distinction I was making was that 'gorean' stuff seems to fall more in line with the man=master/woman=slave ideology. Perhaps there are exceptions to that in gor-culture, but I don't remember seeing any.
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Old 03-12-2017, 01:22 PM   #18 (permalink)
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When I first joined SL I was pretty alarmed by the number of people followed by a troupe of subs, usually kneeling around in events so that I tripped over them. I knew very little about it and understood less, and presumed that it was a power game which was controlled by a power-hungry dominant and that it was an abusive relationship where the subs had no power at all.

Roll on 13 years and I have learned differently. Properly constituted consensual Dom/sub relationships are actually a lot more even handed, don't involve abuse, and are probably healthier than a lot of vanilla relationships, simply because there is a lot more communication needed and given. I think it would be very unlikely to find a D/s relationship where the parties had disliked something for 20 years but had been too embarrassed/afraid to mention it.

What I have learned, is that although it may appear in Gor culture in SL that it's all about men dominating women (as the books most definitely are) the beauty and freedom of SL means that not everyone is as they appear, and so many of the men in Gor are women and many of the women in Gor are men. Some relationships appear to be man/woman and are actually woman/woman or man/man. The thing is, if you can be anybody and you're role playing, yu can role play whomever you please.

Out of SL I would say that a lot of the forums and groups appear to have considerably more female Doms than male, and male subs than female. Or maybe it's just the ones where I hang out.

Being in SL encourages you to play with all aspects of identity and exploring things in SL which it would be difficult or impossible or just too scary to explore in RL is a part of that. Not everybody is Dominant or submissive or wants that to be an essential part of their relationships, but many people have some aspect of that that they would like to explore.

I don't think that it reflects a wish to get back to an old-fashioned male/female relationship where the man is head of the house and the little woman does what she's told. But that is bound to be someone's idea of a good time, of course.
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Old 05-24-2017, 10:21 PM   #19 (permalink)
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and they don't fly around on huge insects either.
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