Richie Waves

Would you like to Clarify that? are you saying everyone living in country's under Sharia law are all terrorists/people worthy of your hatred? because it dam well looks like thats what you're saying here...

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My lastfm

Oooh, Betty! the cat did a shit in the hat

Fmeh

Not everyone in those countries, but most of them because it's LAW to have those beliefs in those countries, or it's at least law to pretend that you have those beliefs there.

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Richie Waves

You just agreed that "most of the people" living under Sharia law are terrorists or worthy of your hatred..

I seriously don't think you mean that... I'm not sure if I ever seen you post something like that before.

I'll leave it there.

prinţesă nină

a peace lovin people...
i cant believe you just said that.
looking back on this thread, youve made some recent posts that really inspire dissection.
is that your serious appraisal of israel, or are you just taking the piss?

caroline ra

Big difference between race and religion. People cant choose what race theyre born but they can choose their religion.

Fmeh

If the Holocaust was happening right now, should I have compassion towards those carrying it out, since they don't really have a choice in the matter because they'd be killed if they disagreed?

Why is this any different? The people living in those countries are FORCED to have those beliefs, or pretend they have those beliefs, and NOTHING we do as a country can help that, nothing anyone can do as an individual can help that--the only thing that can help that is maybe 500 years or so to catch up with Christianity which used to be really awful at one time too. I'm sure there are many kind-hearted people living in Sharia Law countries, just as I'm sure there were many kind-hearted Nazi's back in WW2.

Conform or die is what the name of the game is in those countries, just like if you lived in Germany in WW2, conform or die--become a Nazi or die.

The people in those countries are raised to hate, raised to believe that people who convert to other religions than Islam must be killed. Raised to believe that if your children go against you, you should kill them. Raised to believe that gay people should be hanged. Raised to believe that women should be beaten if they are found out to have been raped. Raised to believe that western civilization is the bane of the world.

Maybe I should have compassion for Phelps and his followers--after all, he's just being honest about his strong beliefs.

I think the only way we can feasibly do anything about the situation is if we no longer were reliant on oil from those countries. Once we no longer rely on oil from those countries, I think we should completely cut them off--no flights in or out through our airlines, no trade, nothing from us, and those who are living here from those countries that don't want to integrate into our culture who want to threaten people for drawing cartoons of Mohammad should be deported back to their originating country.

It's hard to have compassion for a country in which I would be killed for being myself if I visited there. You know, hanged or something like that.

The simple fact is--there is NOTHING that can be done about the strong beliefs in those countries except time, like hundreds of years, for them to see what things are really like. The problem is technology--if we were living back in the times when we didn't have the technological advances we have now, this sort of thing wouldn't be a big deal--it's just time, but in THESE times of high technology, it becomes a very dangerous situation--we don't have 500 years to wait around for them to come to their senses like we did with Christianity.

If the Spanish inquisition was happening RIGHT NOW, I would be just as harsh towards Spain. If the Salem Witch Trials were going on right now, I would be just as harsh towards people in Salem. When countries are practicing HORRIBLE things on an everyday basis, when women are treated like DIRT, lower than animals, when women are beaten because they got raped, when the type of atrocities that happen every day in those countries happen every day, it's really hard for me to have compassion.

When the spiritual and political leaders of those Sharia law countries are basically declaring war on the rest of civilization in the name of Allah and the people are all behind those leaders (mainly because if they're not behind those leaders, they'll most likely be killed at some point in time), it's really hard for me to have compassion. When those countries have HUGE billboards that put suicide bomber's faces on them and declare those people martyrs/heroes, it's really hard for me to have compassion.

It's hard for me to have compassion.

Is it hate? I don't know. Maybe it is, but it certainly isn't LOVE, it certainly isn't acceptance of their anti-gay, anti-woman, anti-anything-but-Islam beliefs.

I don't think that most of the muslims OUTSIDE those Sharia Law countries are like this. It's when they're forced into this kind of crap. We can't go to war with them--it will be as useful as the war in Iraq. We can't change them, we just have to stay away from them and make sure they are able to have as little affect on our country as possible.

Again--the sad truth is that there's nothing we can do--there's nothing that can suddenly make people who have such extreme beliefs change their minds--they are willing to die for their beliefs, they're willing to KILL for their beliefs--they're even willing to kill their own wives and their own children for their beliefs. If that's something I'm supposed to respect somehow, I just don't know what to say.

Richie Waves

Whats your point? or do you have one? you just wanna pile on the "muzzies" too yea?

may aswell.. party in here.

Richie Waves

Fair enough... so I should hate you for the war in Iraq, yea?

there is a fair bit of irony in that post Fmeh...

Fmeh

The people of Israel are generally a peaceful people. It's the government that has some messed up things about it. Yes, the government of Israel has done some terrible things, and I'm not trying to claim anything otherwise. Maybe a better way to word this would be--in CONTRAST to people who live in Sharia Law countries, Israelis are peaceful.

I'm sure there is also some fearmongering taught to people in Israel about Muslims as well, but you don't see them sending their kids out to die for it. You don't find atrocities in Israel like women being beaten because they were raped, or people being hung for being gay.

I've changed my stance on Israel radically from what it used to be. I was one of the first people to speak against Israel in the past, but now that I really know what kind of crap they're dealing with, I think they've been relatively decent in the ways they've handled extremist Muslims, certainly better than the way the Bush administration would handle the same scenarios.

I've read too many stories about what happens in Sharia Law countries that have had me in tears for long periods of time to really be able to feel sorry for those countries anymore. I'll re-iterate: Feeling sorry for Sharia Law countries is like feeling sorry for the Nazis--sure, there are people who live in them that don't really believe so harshly, but they'll never be able to say it or live their lives according to those contrary beliefs because they'd be killed for it.

Fmeh

So, are people being killed in this country for speaking against the war?

Are people being killed in this country for disagreeing with Phelps?

Are people being killed in this country for believing in something like Scientology?

No, we're able to state how we feel. We're able to have independent beliefs. That is not the case in Sharia Law countries.

Where's the Irony?

prinţesă nină

so basically what yourve said is that israel are a peace loving people, the others are... nazi's?

Brenda Archer

Fmeh, rather than cut off all these countries, wouldn't it be better to entice them to join the modern world, which they are gradually doing anyway? The older generations in some of these places still have a pretty high illiteracy rate, but the young are getting educated and that will trigger a lot of change which we can support.

I don't see a way for it not to take some time and I agree we should protect ourselves against possible adverse effects, but I don't see a benefit from cutting people off from modernity. It would just add fuel to the fire.

Richie Waves

up to a million dead in Iraq... based on lies... that on top of countless slaughters in your name... Nicaragua, Vietnam.. you name it..

You think you're so fucking enlightened yet the body count in your name is sickening.

America still has a death penalty.. we in Europe tend to look at that as a disgrace. Your government Tortures prisoners.

your justice system is arguably more racist than South Africa's under apartheid..

My goal isn't to get in to an America sucks rant here... but your making it very hard.

its all good though... because YOU HAVE FREEDOM OF SPEECH.

Fmeh

The Israeli people are GENERALLY a peace loving people, their government is mixed--their government has done some terrible things, and so has the United States government at different points in time.

The Sharia Law countries are like a country of Nazis, yes. They're locked into their beliefs and nothing is going to change it, and people who try to defy or even simply deny those beliefs IN THOSE COUNTRIES get killed. Yeah, I'd put them right up there with the Nazis. Yes. The only difference is that it's all about religious beliefs instead of being mostly about race, it's certainly just as ugly.

So yes, your paraphrasing of what I said is MOSTLY correct.

Fmeh

I agree with you about the United States government. I agree with you about the government of Israel. Do the actions of the government represent the individual people? Hardly.

When there are countries ran by religious fanatics and the people living under those fanatics are almost just as fanatical, where it's normal to see really ugly anti-American demonstrations by the people, when people consider suicide bombers to be martyrs and heroes, yeah, I'd say there's a problem.

MOST people who live in the United States are against the idea of torture. Half the country is against a lot of things that the current administration has done. Just look at polls. Look how small the approval rating of Bush is, or the do-nothing congress who promised to get us out of Bush's mess.

Now look at polls in Sharia law countries.

Fmeh

Rather than cut off all these countries, we should attempt the impossible? Intice them with what? Material things? Teach them the values of materialism? What can we offer them that would be enticing for them?How? They're not allowed to support anything other than their religion.If we don't cut them off, they can still try to claim that we're trying to change their way of life. You DID know that's the main reason why they're mad at us didn't you? It's because they think we're trying to change their way of life, that we're trying to make them like us. They DON'T want to be like us. I wish it was different, but the fact is--they DON'T want to be like us. They consider us to be SECULAR, something that isn't likely to happen in those countries for hundreds of years.

Richie Waves

you're talking out your arse Fmeh.

btw... your nazi analogy could easily be applied to the US too.. you all stood by while a war was waged that cost countless lives... your tax dollars Fmeh.

infact, one could argue that its your education system that enables this kind of shite to go on.

Fmeh

No, sorry, you are incorrect.

We all stood by? No, a lot of us were protesting, but it didn't do any good. We are allowed to protest. We have been allowed to talk about it through media. We are allowed to blatantly disagree. Tell me all about how people in Germany in WW2 were "allowed" to disagree. Ever see Schindler's list? That's about the extent that people could "protest", which is about the extent that people in Sharia law countries are able to "protest".

How can it possibly be argued that our education system is what enables this kind of shit to go on? Since when do schools teach kids that killing people is a good thing? I remember getting taught in school how terrible the way this country was founded--that's where I learned about what was done to the natives, that's where I initially learned about the atrocities of Vietnam--I just don't get where you can say this sort of thing. Please elaborate.

Brenda Archer

What the young people want and what the government formally allows can be very different. Iran is a good example.

With the right kind of support, I think some of those countries could reach a more secular society in *much* less time than that. As in, within our lifetimes. There was progress toward secularism in the second half of the twentieth century, which reversed itself, and that can be reversed back again.

There will probably be an intermediate stage in which basic democracy is established and the worst human rights problems gradually curtailed, while still giving a lot of respect to religion. This is the precarious place where Turkey is now. But there's definitely a progression to these things.

It's not so long ago a lot of America was very bigoted and punitive in some places. We're still working to get out of that, but from a different stage.

I'm not saying we should make ourselves vulnerable. I just think that persuasion and example make for more permanent results than high walls of rejection.

Besides that, the more cultures transition to free societies, the larger the world, and the more creativity and diversity there is in it. I find that very valuable.

Fmeh

I really and TRULY want to believe in what you're saying, but I guess I'm just too cynical. I am unable to see the light at the end of the tunnel that you are able to see.

Richie Waves

I'm out... I'll leave you to your little hate fest unhindered Fmeh... have fun with it... make sure and tell all the kids you run into how the Muslims are coming to take over the world.

Midi Reifsnider

I don't think we need to be trying to make these societies more secular, or more like us, I think we need to work towards acceptance of the differences and tolerance of each others life choices. Islamic societies need to accept that Western societies value free speech as highly as they value placing their religion above criticism, and we need to stop thinking "if only they held the same values as we do".

The reason this film is getting so much attention is partly because of the reactions of Muslim leaders. Had they rolled their eyes and moved on, it would have dropped into the ocean of crazy propagandists videos (of which there are many on all sides of the argument). Taking it off the net or censoring it is pandering to this, we need to respectfully disagree with them on this, and stick to our rights to express ourselves as we see fit.

Richie Waves

That will happen when you use shitty propaganda to tell you whats what.

Fmeh

Excuse me, but I'm not talking about anyone outside those Sharia Law countries.

If you can't tell the difference between someone talking about specific countries and people talking about a religion as a whole, I don't know what to say. I've tried to be as clear as I know how, but because this is SUCH a touchy subject, it's sometimes difficult.

Fmeh

Yes, to beat women and hang gay people and kill "infidels", yep, we should be accepting of those things..... Just like we should be "accepting" of people like Phelps.
How can that happen? They would have to have some of the same values as we do in order to accept that.

And let me re-iterate, I'm talking about extremists in Sharia Law countries, not simply Islamic countries in which there are quite a few that have embraced the idea of democracy.I agree with that paragraph completely, except that I don't believe the whole video to be purely "crazy propaganda", I believe a LOT of it to be crazy propaganda, but parts of it I think are dead on.

Let me re-iterate, again, that my feelings about this are NOT, I repeat, NOT about Islam as a whole, it is about the countries that Sharia law is in place.