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Old 05-22-2013, 09:41 PM   #51 (permalink)
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First my heart goes out to the family, of the murdered man, I have no words that could even begin to try and bring peace to the devastation an act like this must bring. The act of pure brutality continues to shock me whether it takes place here in London my home town or thousands of miles away and I am glad it still shocks and appalls me, may I never I get desensitise by the disgusting acts of violence that seem to be growing more and more on a daily basis. The murderer that spoke on video had I closed my eyes would have sounded like any number of youths from my area of south London. I question his scripted words! His insincere apology to woman and children who had to witness his sickening, murderous act, no true apology is followed by a but...

The brandishing a gun and waiting for police, amounted to death by police, a suicide mentality, he sees it as receiving a reward, becoming a martyr for his cause. I see a coward trying to leave a country devasted and damaged, with no real answers and constantly on the lookout for when the next attack will spring from.

I agree with those that have said it is the personal choices of that individual that has made him what he became. From the earliest written words true or untrue the bible, the Dead Sea scrolls the Koran attrocities have been done in the name of (add detity here). Personally unless I see the hand of God strike the first blow, I will continue to believe it is man that makes the ultimate decision on how evil his intent will be no matter how hard he tries and justifies it.
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Old 05-23-2013, 03:25 AM   #52 (permalink)
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Unbelievable to hear him talk of "our lands" in his London accent. We need to know how and where they were radicalised to the extent they see their own country as alien and the enemy. I just keep thinking "why!?".
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Old 05-23-2013, 04:14 AM   #53 (permalink)
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I'm an ex-British soldier having served 7 tours of Northern Ireland, 2 of Bosnia and 2 of Afghan.
During the UN missions in Bosnia and the former-Yougoslavia conflict, I saw first hand on a daily basis, the muslim communities that had been ethnically-cleansed by Serbian soldiers... Raped and murdered women and children in the deserted streets and the men taken away and murdered. Can you guess how many muslim countries commited troops to help "Protect their own"???.... ONE. Take a bow Pakistan for your commitment of 150 men. Obviously manning the Indian border is more important.... The other 15 or so countries commiting troops were all Christian European (Except the US). The biggest contributions were from first the UK, and second the US.

We need a change in Law... The people of this country don't care about a radical preacher's human rights that prevent us from deporting him, just as he doesn't care about ours. Make preaching hate and encouraging terrorism on the UK mainland an act of treason - Still punishable by death in the UK, and spare the taxpayers the cost of keeping him under house arrest (Currently costing around £150,000 a DAY). It is these that are showing us as an easy target - We seem to be able to go overseas and stamp down on these types of people better than we can on our own streets.

Rant over for now!
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Old 05-23-2013, 06:08 AM   #54 (permalink)
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I'm an ex-British soldier having served 7 tours of Northern Ireland, 2 of Bosnia and 2 of Afghan.
During the UN missions in Bosnia and the former-Yougoslavia conflict, I saw first hand on a daily basis, the muslim communities that had been ethnically-cleansed by Serbian soldiers... Raped and murdered women and children in the deserted streets and the men taken away and murdered. Can you guess how many muslim countries commited troops to help "Protect their own"???.... ONE. Take a bow Pakistan for your commitment of 150 men. Obviously manning the Indian border is more important.... The other 15 or so countries commiting troops were all Christian European (Except the US). The biggest contributions were from first the UK, and second the US.

We need a change in Law... The people of this country don't care about a radical preacher's human rights that prevent us from deporting him, just as he doesn't care about ours. Make preaching hate and encouraging terrorism on the UK mainland an act of treason - Still punishable by death in the UK, and spare the taxpayers the cost of keeping him under house arrest (Currently costing around £150,000 a DAY). It is these that are showing us as an easy target - We seem to be able to go overseas and stamp down on these types of people better than we can on our own streets.

Rant over for now!


I find most of your post ignorant and offensive.
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Old 05-23-2013, 06:23 AM   #55 (permalink)
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I saw first hand on a daily basis, the muslim communities that had been ethnically-cleansed by Serbian soldiers... Raped and murdered women and children in the deserted streets and the men taken away and murdered.
When ethnic cleansing, drone attacks and palestinian refugee camps are the daily reality for so many muslims, is it any wonder that young disaffected men can easily be radicalised?

One attack by lunatics brings out the EDL scum to burn mosques and calls for mass deportation, imagine what the reaction in the UK would be if our daily news was full of images of christian civilians being killed by drone attacks from a muslim superpower, of muslim troops raping and murdering serbian women and children or jewish familes being forced out of their homes to make way for palestinian settlements?

Terrorist attacks can never be defended or justified but until these atrocities against muslims are history, there will always be those eager to use them as recruiting material.
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Old 05-23-2013, 06:52 AM   #56 (permalink)
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I'm an ex-British soldier having served 7 tours of Northern Ireland, 2 of Bosnia and 2 of Afghan.
During the UN missions in Bosnia and the former-Yougoslavia conflict, I saw first hand on a daily basis, the muslim communities that had been ethnically-cleansed by Serbian soldiers... Raped and murdered women and children in the deserted streets and the men taken away and murdered. Can you guess how many muslim countries commited troops to help "Protect their own"???.... ONE. Take a bow Pakistan for your commitment of 150 men. Obviously manning the Indian border is more important.... The other 15 or so countries commiting troops were all Christian European (Except the US). The biggest contributions were from first the UK, and second the US.

We need a change in Law... The people of this country don't care about a radical preacher's human rights that prevent us from deporting him, just as he doesn't care about ours. Make preaching hate and encouraging terrorism on the UK mainland an act of treason - Still punishable by death in the UK, and spare the taxpayers the cost of keeping him under house arrest (Currently costing around £150,000 a DAY). It is these that are showing us as an easy target - We seem to be able to go overseas and stamp down on these types of people better than we can on our own streets.

Rant over for now!
A lot of governments don't usually send troops to these things. Since the invasion of Iraq, other governments have been dragged into conflicts where they would not usually participate. Prior to Iraq, Germany never sent troops outside of Germany (iirc)* and at the time of the first gulf war, Australia had a policy of only providing medical support but by Afghanistan they had troops on the ground. It was pressure from the US/UK in both cases that forced a change in policy in both governments.

As for wasting money on Abu Qatada, I'd much rather we spent it on him as he tries to force the UK to behave in the way its international commitments require it to (and who is prepared to go back to Jordan now that there's guarantees that he won't go on a show trial), than spending money on a Trident replacement or occupying countries and killing innocents. I know, call me a pinko but there you go.

*actually, Germany's policy is peacekeeping and disaster relief. Their constitution is set up so every time Germany wants to send troops outside its borders it has to get parliamentary approval and that's very hard to get. They did get approval to send troops to Afghanistan and have recently had a debate over whether to agree to let them go to Mali to help with the reconstruction.
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Old 05-23-2013, 07:04 AM   #57 (permalink)
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Can you guess how many muslim countries commited troops to help "Protect their own"???.... ONE. Take a bow Pakistan for your commitment of 150 men.
I imagine any Turks reading are delighted at being revised out of the Balkans and Kosovo conflicts. Turkey got involved both through the UN and in its capacity as a NATO country.

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During the UN missions in Bosnia and the former-Yougoslavia conflict, I saw first hand on a daily basis, the muslim communities that had been ethnically-cleansed by Serbian soldiers...
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The other 15 or so countries commiting troops were all Christian European (Except the US). The biggest contributions were from first the UK, and second the US.
According to Wikipedia, the United Nations Protection Force (UNPROFOR) was composed of nearly 39,000 personnel, 320 of whom were killed on duty. Troops were sent from Argentina, Australia, Bangladesh, Belgium, Brazil, Canada, Colombia, Czech Republic, Denmark, Egypt, Estonia, Finland, France, Germany, Ghana, India, Indonesia, Ireland, Italy, Jordan, Kenya, Lithuania, Luxembourg, Malaysia, Nepal, Netherlands, New Zealand, Nigeria, Norway, Pakistan, Poland, Portugal, the Russian Federation, Slovak Republic, Spain, Sweden, Switzerland, Tunisia, Turkey, Ukraine, the United Kingdom and the United States.
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Old 05-23-2013, 07:08 AM   #58 (permalink)
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Tunisia is also Muslim, so are Egypt, Malaysia and Jordan.
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Old 05-23-2013, 07:10 AM   #59 (permalink)
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And Bangladesh (And Morocco was also involved in the UN Civilian Police initiative)

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Old 05-23-2013, 07:12 AM   #60 (permalink)
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I know. I drew attention to Turkey because the country's involvement was very significant through working with both UN and NATO. I've no idea how many soldiers were committed by muslim countries through UNPROFOR (I quoted Wikipedia because obviously several muslim countries sent *some*), but it bugs me that anybody who served in the Balkans wouldn't remember Turkey's considerable involvement. At all.
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Old 05-23-2013, 07:13 AM   #61 (permalink)
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how could I forget Bangladesh! and of course Indonesia is home to the largest number of muslims of any country in the world and I forgot that Nigeria is divided into a christian north and a muslim south (or is it the other way around?).
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Old 05-23-2013, 08:02 AM   #62 (permalink)
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so, the guys are of nigerian descent and the guy killed was a soldier.

Woolwich attack will only make us stronger, says Cameron | UK news | guardian.co.uk

and for those who don't read links, I'll highlight this
Exclusive: Woolwich attack suspect was known to banned terror group and security services - Crime - UK - The Independent
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Mr Choudary, who has long been a controversial figures in Britain’s Islamist circles, has been an outspoken critic of British military involvement in Iraq and Afghanistan.
But he insisted that he had never preached that attacks on British troops or security personnel in Britain were justified.
Mr Choudary said: “My position is clear. There is a covenant which says that in return for Muslims being allowed to live peacefully and practice their faith in Britain, then it is forbidden to attack the British authorities, soldiers, in the UK.
“When people go abroad then the inhabitants of those countries have a right to defend themselves. The biggest aggravating factor we have today is British foreign policy.”
my emphasis. This is one reason why we can still have a (reasonably) open society, the UK is neutral ground, despite the shit it dishes out elsewhere.

The UK government apparently sees the radicalisation of elements of its population as a price worth paying for the international *ahem* interventions. If Al Qaeda is now suggesting this is the kind of actions those radicalised should take then we probably haven't seen the last of this kind of thing yet.
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Old 05-23-2013, 08:23 AM   #63 (permalink)
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This is is a very thoughtful response to yesterday's news which explores White Privilege and Terrorism, I'd recommend it to anyone Half a Giraffe: Woolwich, violence, and the white elephant in the room.
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Old 05-23-2013, 08:28 AM   #64 (permalink)
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Eerie parallels with a French guy who went on the rampage, including against soldiers last March and also said it was in protest against French involvement in Afghanistan. He killed 7 people and injured five
Toulouse and Montauban shootings - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

After that, I heard a presentation on it by the French Minister of the Interior who said that the "lone wolf" attacker was an extremely worrying new phenomenon and he was afraid it would happen again.

He was right.

It is very, VERY hard to judge the extent to which people are radicalised, and particularly if they do go off and do their own thing, but - at some point, and like in both these cases - had contact with radical groups and probably gleaned some ideas from them even if they then appeared to have broken contacts with them.

Also, there is a fine line to tread between trying to stop radicalisation and being considered as opposing the beliefs of other cultures and religions. Monitor any group or individual too closely, and you get the whole "heavy-handed police" thing.

And what's more, it calls for massive resources to do so, against a background of equally massive cuts to law enforcement budgets (quite apart from the fact that *however* those budgets are used, there will be cries of "wasted money* from some quarters).

And those cries are often justified, don't get me wrong, but there will be public outcry against anything. Do more prevention? "Why aren't they reacting enough or fast enough"? Cut back the prevention and invest in rapid reaction capacities? "Why aren't they doing more prevention".

Sorry, ranting. I'm actually writing a report on European crime threats, and everybody wants resources put into everything. They just don't want to pay for it.
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Old 05-23-2013, 09:46 AM   #65 (permalink)
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Thanks, Ariadne. At least according to The Independent, both these guys were, in fact, known to the authorities. One of them had been associated with the (now banned) al Muhajiroun group, but apparently drifted off on his own a couple of years ago.

As I understand it, one of the most common ways these little cells and groups form is that disenchanted young guys get chatting in whatever normal social context, and start reading Islamist websites together and downloading videos of inflammatory sermons and so on.

Heaven knows how you police that.
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Old 05-23-2013, 09:58 AM   #66 (permalink)
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and doesn't that sound like the boston bombers as well?

I saw something this morning where they're talking once more about that internet surveillance law being resurrected. I did some digging but can't find the article but I did find this (Daily Mail alert!) MI5 to install 'black box' spy devices to monitor UK internet traffic | Mail Online
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Old 05-23-2013, 10:37 AM   #67 (permalink)
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and one more to add to the mix

Woolwich attack: of course British foreign policy had a role | Joe Glenton | Comment is free | The Guardian

One day I hope we will have a sane debate about the impact of our foreign policy but as you can see from the comments on this, it's probably not likely in the near future.
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Old 05-23-2013, 10:39 AM   #68 (permalink)
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Thanks, Ariadne. At least according to The Independent, both these guys were, in fact, known to the authorities. One of them had been associated with the (now banned) al Muhajiroun group, but apparently drifted off on his own a couple of years ago.

As I understand it, one of the most common ways these little cells and groups form is that disenchanted young guys get chatting in whatever normal social context, and start reading Islamist websites together and downloading videos of inflammatory sermons and so on.

Heaven knows how you police that.
There is no way you can police it, quite honestly.

The French are trying to keep a closer eye on youths who have even a passing interest in radical groups and then leave them, but again, resources are lacking and accusations of heavy-handedness arise very quickly.

(Also, finding and training cops capable of not only keeping an eye on these kids and checking for any links to links to links that build up a picture isn't that easy either).

But really the problem lies in the fact that there *are* so many bored, unemployed young people who feel there is no hope for them, and they are quickly attracted by things that seem to give them a purpose, an identity.

So basically, it's a question of finding the kids other things to do (which is not easy) and that will increase their self-esteem and sense of belonging.

Sure, efforts are made in various countries, such as trying to get them involved in sport, or other "social" things but again it's not easy - and again requires budget and human resources.

Ask any top cop which is easier: push for some nice shiny, showy things that give instant exposure to whoever approved them, or push for longer-term, preventive stuff where results can take years, i.e. when whoever would approve them will not be around to take the credit.
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Old 05-23-2013, 11:28 AM   #69 (permalink)
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The victim has been confirmed...

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/d...lwich-incident
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Old 05-23-2013, 11:34 AM   #70 (permalink)
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From a blog,

Woolwich and Terror: We Must Resist Having Our Enemies Constructed For Us | Scriptonite Daily

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There are people using violence as a tool to further their religious, political or other ends all over the world; of all colours and races, of all faiths and no faith. However, today’s media narrative for terror and terrorism is Islamic Terror. This means that only this type of purposeful violence is deemed ‘Terrorism’, while other acts are relegated to murder, politically motivated, or simply insane.

Did you notice how all terrorists used to be Irish? And suddenly, they are all Muslims? Well, they’re not. But if the media agenda is Irish Terror, or Muslim Terror, then is can start to look that way.

The case I am making is not some tit for tat squabble about the balance of terror – as in, no YOU’RE a terrorist! Instead, I am seeking to highlight a serious issue: the ways in which (particularly) UK and US citizens are having their minds shaped about relative terror.
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Old 05-23-2013, 11:41 AM   #71 (permalink)
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Old 05-23-2013, 11:47 AM   #72 (permalink)
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Interesting. And although I agree it's all too easy to throw everybody into the same bag, the list of known terrorist organisations tends to be heavy on the radical islamic ones.

There *are* others. Of course there are. But just Google for "terrorist organisation" and you find lists established by a whole bunch of countries.

Much as I am a little wary of Wikipedia, it has a list here of what different countries deem to be terrorist organisations.

And before somebody starts on the "Ari is anti-muslim", no I am not. I'm just stating that most self-declared or clearly established terrorist groups, networks and organisations are radical islamic ones.

So it's not surprising that the general public tend to associate terrorism with those groups and those groups alone. Shame, but in this era of spoonfeeding public opinion what can you expect?
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Old 05-23-2013, 12:00 PM   #73 (permalink)
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but you also have to remember that most of the invasions and occupations that have happened down the last decade or so have been in Muslim countries. Prior to this I'd say most of these groups were based around Palestine issues.. there were a lot of active groups during the Irish troubles and I'll lay bets that anywhere there's trouble you're going to find them.

Iraq, Palestine, Pakistan, Afghanistan (I'm sure I've missed a few) - all have outsiders meddling since 2001. I can think of no other part of the world that has had such violence inflicted upon it during that time, it's no wonder that these groups are gaining prominence.
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Old 05-23-2013, 12:44 PM   #74 (permalink)
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One of them is a convert. He's British born and bred. They're not his 'lands' as he says in that video while he drips with blood. Soul searching and guilt about what the government is up to abroad isn't going to change someone like that. Hundreds of thousands marched against the Iraq war here. It's a war most didn't want. I believe if it wasn't that, it would have been some other reason to blame. Gay rights or maybe women's equality, who knows? Extremists always have a some justifiable reason when really it's about them using fear and violence for notoriety as no-one wants to listen to their batshit crazy ideas normally.
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Old 05-23-2013, 12:50 PM   #75 (permalink)
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and another link because I feel like hammering the point home

Was the London killing of a British soldier 'terrorism'? | Glenn Greenwald | Comment is free | guardian.co.uk

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That this was a barbaric and horrendous act goes without saying, but given the legal, military, cultural and political significance of the term "terrorism", it is vital to ask: is that term really applicable to this act of violence? To begin with, in order for an act of violence to be "terrorism", many argue that it must deliberately target civilians. That's the most common means used by those who try to distinguish the violence engaged in by western nations from that used by the "terrorists": sure, we kill civilians sometimes, but we don't deliberately target them the way the "terrorists" do.

But here, just as was true for Nidal Hasan's attack on a Fort Hood military base, the victim of the violence was a soldier of a nation at war, not a civilian. He was stationed at an army barracks quite close to the attack. The killer made clear that he knew he had attacked a soldier when he said afterward: "this British soldier is an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth."

The US, the UK and its allies have repeatedly killed Muslim civilians over the past decade (and before that), but defenders of those governments insist that this cannot be "terrorism" because it is combatants, not civilians, who are the targets. Can it really be the case that when western nations continuously kill Muslim civilians, that's not "terrorism", but when Muslims kill western soldiers, that is terrorism? Amazingly, the US has even imprisoned people at Guantanamo and elsewhere on accusations of "terrorism" who are accused of nothing more than engaging in violence against US soldiers who invaded their country.

It's true that the soldier who was killed yesterday was out of uniform and not engaged in combat at the time he was attacked. But the same is true for the vast bulk of killings carried out by the US and its allies over the last decade, where people are killed in their homes, in their cars, at work, while asleep (in fact, the US has re-defined "militant" to mean "any military-aged male in a strike zone"). Indeed, at a recent Senate Armed Services Committee hearing on drone killings, Gen. James Cartwright and Sen. Lindsey Graham both agreed that the US has the right to kill its enemies even while they are "asleep", that you don't "have to wake them up before you shoot them" and "make it a fair fight". Once you declare that the "entire globe is a battlefield" (which includes London) and that any "combatant" (defined as broadly as possible) is fair game to be killed - as the US has done - then how can the killing of a solider of a nation engaged in that war, horrific though it is, possibly be "terrorism"?
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