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Old 04-12-2013, 02:11 PM   #26 (permalink)
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Also, this is the kind of family dispute that takes place with social services before any police are involved.
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Old 04-12-2013, 02:20 PM   #27 (permalink)
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What Allen's brother did was beyond disgusting. Just because someone shares genes with you doesn't give you carte blanche to treat them any way you like. What a sad situation.
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Old 04-12-2013, 04:00 PM   #28 (permalink)
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Blood is thicker than law in some places, but not thicker than heads, some of which seem badly in need of softening.

Yea, the smart thing for the hospital would have been to toss that nurse to the lawyers and say it was her incompetence and the brother's fraud that was behind it rather than trying to defend it. As it is, they've placed themselves on the bullseye.

Given they ignored both men's power of attorney this would be an easy case in most places. This being Missouri, it may be a bit tougher.
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Old 04-12-2013, 04:41 PM   #29 (permalink)
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This is not the first time in the history of the world that family members have fought in the hospital over who gets to make decisions and who gets to be there. The hospital should have a policy in place for dealing with these situations, and the staff should have training in these situations. The safety of the patient should be the top priority always, but the next priority is making sure the legal decision-maker is there and the wishes of the patient in that regard are followed. There is really no excuse for the hospital to be unprepared for this kind of situation.

As to the police, they are coming into a tense situation in which the only information they have is what they see and what the hospital told them. If the hospital calls and tells the police that Roger is an unstable maniac threatening a patient and attacking the patient's family and hospital staff, and they come in and see a physically hostile situation, they have to act on what they know at the time. They don't have the luxury of sorting out the details until after the situation is diffused.

It is hard to criticize the police without knowing what hospital staff told them when the hospital called them. However, there is really no excuse for the hospital screwing this up. This is a situation for which every hospital should be prepared and have a plan of action, for which all staff members should know their legal obligations and have training as to how to carry out those obligations.
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Old 04-12-2013, 04:48 PM   #30 (permalink)
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My brother and his partner have been together for 15 years now and I am their executor in case things get dicey with hospitals and stuff. But they shouldn't have to do that. Their relationship should stand on the same merit as my relationship with my husbands does.

I have a gay friend who was kicked out of the home she'd lived in 18 years with her partner by her partner's family. It turned into a huge, nasty legal battle even though they had a will (the family contested it).

This is why gay couples need to have their marriages recognized federally.

This just makes me so angry.
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Old 04-12-2013, 08:10 PM   #31 (permalink)
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This is not the first time in the history of the world that family members have fought in the hospital over who gets to make decisions and who gets to be there. The hospital should have a policy in place for dealing with these situations, and the staff should have training in these situations. The safety of the patient should be the top priority always, but the next priority is making sure the legal decision-maker is there and the wishes of the patient in that regard are followed. There is really no excuse for the hospital to be unprepared for this kind of situation.

As to the police, they are coming into a tense situation in which the only information they have is what they see and what the hospital told them. If the hospital calls and tells the police that Roger is an unstable maniac threatening a patient and attacking the patient's family and hospital staff, and they come in and see a physically hostile situation, they have to act on what they know at the time. They don't have the luxury of sorting out the details until after the situation is diffused.

It is hard to criticize the police without knowing what hospital staff told them when the hospital called them. However, there is really no excuse for the hospital screwing this up. This is a situation for which every hospital should be prepared and have a plan of action, for which all staff members should know their legal obligations and have training as to how to carry out those obligations.
The police weren't called to the hospital. The police took him to the hospital against his will. Because the brother brought them there, to his house.


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Amanda was taking care of Allen while Roger was at work at Tuesday, but when they returned home from a few errands, Allen’s brother Lee and sister Pat were waiting at the door with paramedics and police.

Due to Allen’s sluggish state, the police determined he was a “danger to himself” and decided to take him to the hospital against his will. Rather than taking him to St. Luke’s Hospital in Lee’s Summit, the local hospital where his regular doctors are, they took him to the Research Medical Center in Kansas City, which he only goes to for his ECT. They ignored Amanda’s attempts to explain Allen’s medical needs and procedures.
http://thinkprogress.org/lgbt/2013/0...ouri-hospital/
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Old 04-12-2013, 08:20 PM   #32 (permalink)
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Also, the nurse may not be at fault here either, supposedly when they got to the hospital, the two were fighting, not surprising.

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The nurse informed Roger that because of his agitated state, he needed to leave. When he explained that he intended to stay with his husband, she replied, “I know who you two are. You need to leave.” Refusing to acknowledge their legal relationship, she called the police to have Roger forcibly removed.
She may have been right. They both may have been causing a disturbance at this point. Then the cops come in and drag him out.

But all of this started with the cops agreeing to go to this man's house because his brother, with no legal authority, decided he was going to remove him from his home. And they complied. If he was in a foggy state, there were very probably medical reasons for this, especially if he was having ECT therapy.
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Old 04-12-2013, 08:28 PM   #33 (permalink)
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And further, I know these are multiple posts, as I've said I didn't get this post count any other way, the attitude of said cops, putting on rubber gloves, treating him as if he were diseased, tells me they were very willing to accept the brother's story about all this. That his brother was being drugged and held captive by some evil gay man or whatever the fuck he told them to get them out there.
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Old 04-12-2013, 09:05 PM   #34 (permalink)
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Old 04-12-2013, 10:55 PM   #35 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Io Zeno View Post
The police weren't called to the hospital. The police took him to the hospital against his will. Because the brother brought them there, to his house.
According to the Think Progress articles, the police first responded to the brother's emergency call on Allen and took Allen to the hospital. When Roger found out through his daughter Amanda that Allen was there, Roger went to the hospital. At that point there was the confrontation, and according to the Think Progress article, the hospital called police to take Roger away. (A Huffingon Post article about it today clarifies that it was hospital security that took Roger away, not police.)

New Details Emerge About Roger Gorley's Arrest For Refusing To Leave Sick, Gay Partner
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Old 04-12-2013, 11:17 PM   #36 (permalink)
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I was also quoting the thinkprogress article, there isn't any contradiction.

This is the daughter's version:

Quote:
When we arrived at Allen and Roger’s home Lee, Allen’s brother who lives in town, was waiting at the front door. The Lee’s Summit Police followed right behind us. They were waiting for us to come home. Bombarded by 5 policemen Allen didn’t know what to do. He was exhausted from our outing and we were planning on him taking a nap as soon as we got home. So he allowed the police, his brother Lee, sister Pat, and 4 Paramedics into the house. It was utter chaos from the moment we opened our car doors.

Due to Allen’s state at that precise moment the police decided to take him to the hospital against his will stating he was a “danger to himself”. I immediately called my father and told him to leave work and get to the hospital. The paramedics and police were not listening to me they were listening to the brother and the sister.
Arrested at Hospital: Just for wanting to hold his partner’s hand | We Are Atheism

The cops were at their house, waiting, according to Roger's daughter and think progress. Either that or the brother called them... for what?
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Old 04-12-2013, 11:19 PM   #37 (permalink)
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For the curious, this is how you involuntarily commit someone to mental health treatment in Missouri (and I think you will find most states have similar laws): You fill out a form about the person who you think should be committed, find a judge to look at it, and judge sends out police to pick up the person you specified.

Mental Health - Mental Illness - Civil Involuntary Detention

Section 632-305 Detention for evaluation and treatment,

The process can be started by any person (does not have to be a spouse, does not have to be a family member). It is a quick-moving process, and the judge makes a decision based solely upon the information provided by whomever fills out the form- there is no investigation or trial or anything like that.

Such a process has to be a fast-moving process if it is actually to help protect anyone who is a danger to himself or others around him. The flip-side, though, is that it's easy to abuse.

There is no indication that the police did anything but the job the law and court order requires when showing up to take Allen to the hospital. Based on the facts provided in the Huffington Post article, it sounds very likely the brother was orchestrating an abuse of the system by determining a window of time during which Allen would be alone so he could pounce without interference from Roger or Amanda.
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Old 04-12-2013, 11:21 PM   #38 (permalink)
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Cops and paramedics. So, yeah, no question they were waiting at the house for them to come home.

No one seems to be asking the police just what in the hell they were doing there to begin with.
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Old 04-12-2013, 11:26 PM   #39 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Amity Slade View Post
For the curious, this is how you involuntarily commit someone to mental health treatment in Missouri (and I think you will find most states have similar laws): You fill out a form about the person who you think should be committed, find a judge to look at it, and judge sends out police to pick up the person you specified.

Mental Health - Mental Illness - Civil Involuntary Detention

Section 632-305 Detention for evaluation and treatment,

The process can be started by any person (does not have to be a spouse, does not have to be a family member). It is a quick-moving process, and the judge makes a decision based solely upon the information provided by whomever fills out the form- there is no investigation or trial or anything like that.

Such a process has to be a fast-moving process if it is actually to help protect anyone who is a danger to himself or others around him. The flip-side, though, is that it's easy to abuse.

There is no indication that the police did anything but the job the law and court order requires when showing up to take Allen to the hospital. Based on the facts provided in the Huffington Post article, it sounds very likely the brother was orchestrating an abuse of the system by determining a window of time during which Allen would be alone so he could pounce without interference from Roger or Amanda.
"The application must specify the factual information on which such belief is based and should contain the names and addresses of all persons known to the applicant who have knowledge of such facts through personal observation."

Obviously not.

I'm no expert but this seems rather open to extreme abuse and waste of resources, if anyone can walk in, fill out a form and get a judge to have the cops and paramedics try to take a person against their will? I mean, seriously, I'm curious cause this seems nuts.
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Old 04-12-2013, 11:27 PM   #40 (permalink)
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Also, at the very least, the brother is going to be charged with falsifying that document, if it was a court order. He knew damn well that his brother was legally represented by his husband and he had medical issues that were being actively treated.
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Old 04-12-2013, 11:34 PM   #41 (permalink)
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Also, although HuffPo is saying that it was hospital security who took him away, the daughter makes it very clear that it was the KC police in her statement so, dunno there.

Quote:
When the Kansas City Missouri Police Department arrived they asked my father to leave the room. He said to them, “No. This is my husband and I am going to stay with him.” The police considered that a violation of a direct order so they began to forcibly remove him from the room.
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Old 04-12-2013, 11:52 PM   #42 (permalink)
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Here is another article on the case, in which the brother Lee gives his side of the story. Anyone who wishes to read it for themselves can judge Lee's sincerity.

Incident at Research Medical goes viral: Full story of man removed from sick partner's beside

Quote:
On Tuesday, Roger's daughter, Amanda Brown, was taking care of Allen while he was at work. But Allen's brother ended up calling 911 when he couldn't get a hold of him.

"I was worried about him," Lee said. "I know he has had some falls, and I didn't know what was going on or if he was still there."

...

Lee and Roger and up getting into an argument over Allen's medical care in the hospital room.

"I know the conversation got a little heated, and the nurse had come in the first time and said 'you two need to leave the room,' so we kind of quieted down for a minute," Lee recounted. "Roger wanted me to leave the room, and I told him 'well, no, you need to leave the room' and the nurses came in the second time and said 'you both need to leave the room.'"

When Roger didn't leave, a nurse called hospital security officers, who took him into custody.

...

But Lee said this is all being blown out of proportion. He said he only wants what's best for his brother, and that it's not a gay rights issue.
He explained he wasn't trying to keep Roger from the hospital -- in fact, both of them were asked to leave the room. He said he did leave once hospital security arrived, but he didn't know Roger had been arrested until later.

"I was kind of scared for him, and I was upset for Allen," Lee said. "I love Roger like I do my brother ... it's heart-wrenching for me to see my brother's husband being taken away."
This article also states that Roger was taken first detained by hospital security, then taken from the hospital by police.

Last edited by Amity Slade; 04-12-2013 at 11:58 PM. Reason: Quoted exerpts of "Lee's story"
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Old 04-13-2013, 12:10 AM   #43 (permalink)
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Whatever the truth here, the fact is this seemed to be an ongoing issue within this family. And that all of this got out of hand when the police entered the equation, forcibly taking him to the hospital. Now, if there was a court order here, then I take back what I said about the cops but only somewhat. I still think they had some responsibility to try to discern what the situation was here, the man had been out with his stepdaughter; he was obviously not say, alone and in trouble, on the floor and needing assistance. They already knew he was ill so his state wasn't unexpected. But he was not in any need of "emergency intervention".

The main reason I do not believe the brother is that if he really was concerned about Allen, that he was in some sort of trouble, unable to get to the phone, the fact that he was out with Rodger's daughter and coming home, made that concern unnecessary. And he certainly knew that Allen was ill and probably saw him in similar states, exhausted and a bit confused.

But he let the cops take him anyway, he didn't stop them, quite the opposite. Didn't call his husband, nothing.
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Old 04-13-2013, 12:27 AM   #44 (permalink)
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If he was on an outing with his step-daughter, how bad could he have been? I can understand he was probably tired, due to his issues, but people who are in danger, or a danger to themselves, are not normally capable of an "outing" with a family member.
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Old 04-13-2013, 10:28 AM   #45 (permalink)
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yeah, but did the police do this picking up and taking to hospital for her?

This is where the story goes off the rails. Because even though he was his brother, he had no legal authority over him. And I would hope that the police would, oh, check out if he did or if someone else did, before hand. Like that man living with him, who claimed to be his husband.
In Missouri; police arent going to research all of that.

They are going to show up to a 911 call about someone who is a "danger" to themselves. They are going to talk to the people present and determine if the person is a danger to themselves based on police guidelines. If they find that the person is a danger to themselves; they will take them to the hospital. Their job is to remove the person from the the danger they have created for themselves.

At that point it is up to the hospital to find who has authority over someone the police have deemed to be a danger to themselves. As long as the person has that label, they have no authority over themselves. If the person has no one on file at that particular hospital or no one with them; they become wards of the state. The hospital then has a doctor to check the person out to see if based on medical standards they are a danger to themselves.
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Old 04-13-2013, 10:39 AM   #46 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Amity Slade View Post
For the curious, this is how you involuntarily commit someone to mental health treatment in Missouri (and I think you will find most states have similar laws): You fill out a form about the person who you think should be committed, find a judge to look at it, and judge sends out police to pick up the person you specified.

Mental Health - Mental Illness - Civil Involuntary Detention

Section 632-305 Detention for evaluation and treatment,

The process can be started by any person (does not have to be a spouse, does not have to be a family member). It is a quick-moving process, and the judge makes a decision based solely upon the information provided by whomever fills out the form- there is no investigation or trial or anything like that.

Such a process has to be a fast-moving process if it is actually to help protect anyone who is a danger to himself or others around him. The flip-side, though, is that it's easy to abuse.

There is no indication that the police did anything but the job the law and court order requires when showing up to take Allen to the hospital. Based on the facts provided in the Huffington Post article, it sounds very likely the brother was orchestrating an abuse of the system by determining a window of time during which Allen would be alone so he could pounce without interference from Roger or Amanda.
If the person is acting eradicate or suicidal you would just have to call the police. IF they acted the same way in front of the cops they would take them in.

It is scarey how easy it is still today.
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Old 04-15-2013, 03:06 AM   #47 (permalink)
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I am not sure of the source of their information, but according to an article in the Advocate, when the brother Lee called paramedics to Allen's house, Allen was slipping in and out of consciousness.

WATCH: Hospitalized Missouri Man's Arrested Husband, Straight Brother Speak Out | Advocate.com

Quote:
Mansell's brother, Lee, reportedly called paramedics when his brother did not respond to phone calls on Tuesday, and arrived at Mansell and Gorley's home along with police and paramedics. Allen Mansell struggles with clinical depression, and has previously recieved electroshock therapy treatment at Research Medical Center in Kansas City, Mo. Allen Mansell was reportedly fading in and out of consciousness, which his brother says led paramedics to transport Allen and admit him to Research Medical Center on Tuesday.
The brother Lee may have very well done the right thing- potentially life-saving- by calling the paramedics. (And notably, in none of the stories in which Amanda or Roger speak out do they criticize Lee for calling the paramedics.)

And if that is the case, then really it is easy to see why Lee might have been extremely upset with Roger (and Amanda). They were supposed to be looking after Allen, they weren't there with Allen, and Allen was in danger.

It sounds more like Lee's attempt to take charge had nothing to do with homophobia, and much more to do with anger that Allen was in danger and at least the appearance that Roger dropped the ball in looking after Allen.

The Advocate article links to a video that ran on the Kansas City TV station. The report at the end of that video indicates that Roger had not in fact shown the power of attorney to the hospital, and did not think should have had to show it. He's going to be wrong on that. The hospital does not know exactly what that power of attorney authorizes Roger to do on Allen's behalf. If the power of attorney authorizes Roger to sell Allen's real estate on Allen's behalf, well that does not give him the authority to make medical decisions for Allen. They must see the actual document.

The rush to judgment of homophobia on the part of the hospital, police, and Lee all may have been premature.

If the police and the hospital were faithfully doing their jobs and not acting on homophobia, that makes this incident a good illustration of why Allen and Roger should have marriage, and not a complex separate-but-partially-equal marriage substitute. If everyone faithfully doing what the law asks them to do it results in a situation gone horribly wrong, that suggests that the law is bad. If Roger could have said "He's my husband" instead of "I have power of attorney," then Lee is the one who would have been dragged away. Spouse trumps sibling, that is how marriage affects the family rankings and everyone has known it for centuries.
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Old 04-15-2013, 05:37 AM   #48 (permalink)
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My cynical smartass self actually wondered if the whole thing was orchestrated to show why same sex couples need the recognition/protection that legal marriage provides.

I'm not going to hate on the cops for putting on gloves. For years, I went to blood borne pathogens training every single freaking year, and we were told to treat everyone as if they had HIV or Hep C. I don't doubt those cops go through similar training.
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Old 04-15-2013, 09:47 AM   #49 (permalink)
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I can't wait to see how calm you'll be when a hospital starts making decisions on you or your loved one's treatment against both of your wishes.
I can't wait for you to enlighten me on these "treatment" decisions the hospital was making against the wishes of Allen and Roger.
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Old 04-15-2013, 11:05 AM   #50 (permalink)
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I can't wait for you to enlighten me on these "treatment" decisions the hospital was making against the wishes of Allen and Roger.
Apparently being there, for starters.
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