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**Vivianne Draper** · 03-07-2013, 10:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dancien Graves

Cris, tell me more of Venezuela so that others who have no family there, nor have put foot to ground there can tell you that you're wrong...

don't you know that reading about it is just the same as having been born and raised there and having family there?

Dancien Graves · 03-07-2013, 11:06 AM

Well I guess if it's on the internet, it must be true.

Free Xue · 03-07-2013, 02:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dancien Graves

Cris, tell me more of Venezuela so that others who have no family there, nor have put foot to ground there can tell you that you're wrong...

Bookmarked for future reference for when you're being an opinionated ass on some topic you only read about.

Love ya!

Dancien Graves · 03-07-2013, 04:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Free Xue

Bookmarked for future reference for when you're being an opinionated ass on some topic you only read about.

Love ya!

Please be sure to bring it up the next time I argue with somebody who has family in the country or is from the country about their country.

Free Xue · 03-07-2013, 05:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dancien Graves

Please be sure to bring it up the next time I argue with somebody who has family in the country or is from the country about their country.

So, every argument on US issues with US citizens. Got it.

Vivienne Graves · 03-07-2013, 10:47 PM

And another view of Chavez (from a Venezuelan):

Quote:

Chavez Wasn't Just a Zany Buffoon, He Was an Oppressive Autocrat - Francisco Toro - The Atlantic

One irony of his rule is that it eventually curtailed freedom of speech much more among his supporters than his detractors.

If Hugo Chávez, who passed away today at 58, had one central skill, it was getting people to develop strong opinions about him. Chances are that you have one yourself. Passionate and charismatic, Chávez slipped comfortably into the role of romantic Latin American revolutionary, championing the poor against an unfeeling local oligarchy and its imperial paymasters. Reactions to this narrative arc are always visceral; ill-suited to nuance.

Lost in the parallel strains of adulation and disgust was an appreciation of the complexity of his rule. In fact, Venezuela under Chávez was a glorious contradiction -- an autocracy with a popular, elected megalomaniac at its center.

To start to appreciate the dynamics of Chávez's power, you have to begin with his speeches: endless, vituperative, folksy, rambling and always, always unscripted, they electrified supporters, infuriated opponents and built over the years into a kind of corpus of law. They became the sources of ultimate power in the country, their authority far outranking -- in practice, if not in theory -- that of laws, regulations, even the constitution. Under Chávez, Venezuela became an Oral Republic, a place where an off-the-cuff remark could land you in jail, end your job, see your property seized, or, alternatively, set an orgy of petrodollar spending loose on your community.

The debate on whether this mode of governance could meaningfully be described as "democratic" has been hashed over again and again ad infinitum, both in Venezuela and abroad. The recitation of arguments on both sides long since went stale: yes, Chávez was beloved -- genuinely beloved -- of millions of poor Venezuelans, and won election after election for a decade and a half. And yes, having won all those elections he proceeded to act like an absolute monarch rather than an elected official, relishing every chance to showcase his contempt for the institutions of constitutional government, and gradually dismantling them in the process.

Both of these strains are true; there's no easy way to resolve the tension between them. Like an old-style dictator, he treated the state as his personal plaything but, unlike one, his power rested not on violence but on genuine popular affection. Venezuela's history since 1999 has been the story of that contradiction playing itself out across the lives of 29 million people.

jacqueline trudeau · 03-08-2013, 10:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dancien Graves

Cris, tell me more of Venezuela so that others who have no family there, nor have put foot to ground there can tell you that you're wrong...

Yeah, you'd think Richie knew everything there is to know about America from listening to the Tea Party. They are Americans, after all, right?

Or the Republican members of Congress. Not only are they Americans, they represent LOTS of other Americans!

Richie Waves · 03-08-2013, 12:06 PM

What the Statistics Tell Us about Venezuela in the Chavez Era | venezuelanalysis.com

Quote:

In the lead up to Venezuela’s presidential election earlier this year, the picture painted in most private media was that of a country falling apart—a corrupt regime drunk on oil money that was attempting to hold onto power after more than a decade of gross mismanagement of the country’s economy and public institutions. The young, energetic opposition candidate was riding a wave of enthusiasm among the tired masses that desired a change from the past and were looking for new leadership to move their country forward.

Of course, the electoral outcome proved that to be false, but if one has paid attention to the international media in recent years, there is constant talk of crime, food shortages, electrical blackouts, and of a long list of failed policies that have supposedly led to a stagnant economy and a country on the brink of collapse. Without providing any context, the impression given is that of a socialist clown clinging to power through populist policies and fiery rhetoric, and a country that is suffering the consequences.

Needless to say, little context is offered on the supposed “new” leaders of the opposition either, whose top three candidates (Henrique Capriles Radonski, Maria Corina Machado, Leopoldo Lopez Mendoza) are all children of the old elite. Their families own three of the country's largest business conglomerates (Grupo Capriles, Grupo Zuloaga, and Grupo Mendoza, respectively), whose ultimate goal is to enact the neoliberal economic policies that serve their interests, despite the continuous denials of their candidates.

But a brief look at the statistics offers a very different story about Venezuela. While there are certain elements of truth to the media campaign—indeed there have been persistent blackouts, some food shortages, and rising crime—understanding the context of the changes that the country has experienced under the Chavez government over the last decade tells a very distinct story. It is a story that helps explain why the majority of the Venezuelan people keep re-electing a government that, according to the private media, is driving the country into the ground.

Jahar Aabye · 03-08-2013, 03:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Richie Waves

What the Statistics Tell Us about Venezuela in the Chavez Era | venezuelanalysis.com

Four legs good, two legs bad!

Richie Waves · 03-08-2013, 05:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jahar Aabye

Four legs good, two legs bad!

You're so mysterious and cool.

eta, Orwell was rather sad that right wingers started using Animal farm as a critique of socialism. Being a social democrat himself.

Lloyd Newman · 03-08-2013, 07:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Richie Waves

This forum is a right leaning forum. America is a right wing country.

Its WHAT?!?!

If you think this is a right leaning forum, then your personal political focus must be somewhere about 1000 miles west of Karl Marx and Mao Tse Tung. You're REALLY way out in Cloud Cuckoo Land.

But then, we knew that already...

Eric Knox · 03-08-2013, 08:09 PM

America is by no means a right wing country. It just seems that way because the right wing conservative whackos are more outspoken.

Edav Nomad · 03-08-2013, 10:20 PM

Wasn't Chavez the one who shut down TV and radio stations because they spoke out against him?

Richie Waves · 03-08-2013, 10:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Edav Nomad

Wasn't Chavez the one who shut down TV and radio stations because they spoke out against him?

No, he refused to re-grant a TV channel their license after they played a roll in the 2002 attempted coup.

(Oh look, the "all knowing" Jaher agree's with you)

Since he hasn't a clue, let me clue you in. 5% of the Venezuelan media is state owned, that is, pro Chavez, the rest is privately run and by anti Chavez ex oligarchs. It's interesting to note that you can get Fox News, the American version in Venezuela too.. they just refer to Chavez as a dictator.

If Chavez was closing stations for saying bad things about him, there wouldn't be any left at all. The claim is just absolutely ridiculous.

Jahar Aabye · 03-08-2013, 11:02 PM

Meh, Reporters Without Borders still ranks Venezuela at 117th in press freedom. They have some more general information about the shutdown of several stations for refusing to air Chavez speeches as well.

World Report - Venezuela - Reporters Without Borders

Dancien Graves · 03-09-2013, 01:15 AM

I had a dream! I had a dream that one day motherfuckers would cite their sources! I had a dream that one day people couldn't randomly pull numbers out of their asses 99% of the time (See what I did there?)!

Richie Waves · 03-09-2013, 10:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dancien Graves

I had a dream! I had a dream that one day motherfuckers would cite their sources! I had a dream that one day people couldn't randomly pull numbers out of their asses 99% of the time (See what I did there?)!

I had a dream, where people had the same internet as me. Where if they're really that fucking interested in the truth they'd go and look it up themselves.

Or, should I avoid having to cite sources by using the "some people say" or "critics argue" propaganda method?

Critics argue Chavez was a drug addict and a dictator.

Richie Waves · 03-09-2013, 12:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jahar Aabye

Meh, Reporters Without Borders still ranks Venezuela at 117th in press freedom. They have some more general information about the shutdown of several stations for refusing to air Chavez speeches as well.

World Report - Venezuela - Reporters Without Borders

You are hilarious. I mean really. You are so selective in what and who you criticise you might as well be just reading from state department minutes.

Indeed, Chavez was not perfect. Nowhere close. But was he so bad as to illicit the term "dictator"? or have "N"GO's" funded in the millions to enter Venezuela under the cloak of aid to help in the destabilization of his government? I wonder myself. I mean, forget how damaging that is to the job that real aid workers were doing are doing around the world, because after the vaccine thing in Pakistan we can make a reasonable argument the US just doesn't give a fuck about that as long as their ideological war gets won.

On top of that, the US funded the opposition media to the tune of 40 million dollars, not enough to dissuade the poor that rich ex oligarchs are a better choice of leadership.

The difference, of course, is not that Chavez carried out Atrocities, It's not that he constrained a free media and it's not even that he changed the constitution so he could remain president for the rest of his life. Those things are not a problem to the united states. This is an unarguable truism of the united states over the last century. Play ball and we don't care how you keep control, infact play ball and we'll help you. Turkey carried out near genocide with the help, aid and support of the united states. KSA currently has a regime more brutal than the Iranian but plays balls. Bahrain.. many others. no one cares, no one gives a shit.

Indeed, Had Chavez been all those things or worse but on the right of the political spectrum, playing the banjo for the united states, most people on this forum probably wouldn't even know his name.

The reason Chavez was hated was simply because he had the audacity to be "bad left" - Yet, despite that, the majority of Venezuelans still voted for him. That pisses off the US. Democracy only as far as you can control it. It's no democracy at all. Blistering hypocrisy.

ps: The fact that you, the Israel apologist brought up the DWB press freedom index is quite hilarious. You have no bother defending them and they 4 places above Venezuela in the same list. The supposedly free Israel who share our western sensibilities and values.

**Void** · 03-10-2013, 02:30 PM

One should only say good of the dead...

... they're dead, good.

**Cristiano** · 03-10-2013, 05:08 PM

Justin Timberlake As Elton John | Hugo Chavez | SNL Cold Open | Mediaite

**Cristiano** · 03-10-2013, 08:23 PM

Venezuelan opposition leader Capriles will run

Richie Waves · 03-10-2013, 09:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cristiano

Venezuelan opposition leader Capriles will run

I'd say the cash is only pouring in from the states.

**Kamilah Hauptmann** · 03-11-2013, 03:10 AM

Any stats geeks out there? Trying to make some sense of some numbers here:

World Development Indicators - Google Public Data Explorer
and
World Development Indicators - Google Public Data Explorer

First shows poverty headcount overall diminishing poverty headcount, the second shows overall household expenditures rising from under $2500 per capita to a little over $3500.

But when you look at this:
Venezuela Consumer Price Index (CPI)

I suspect the government official reported poverty level hasn't been adjusted in a decade. I also can't figure out what Venezuela deems to be the poverty level. It's nice and all that more 'dollars' are able to be spent, but when the cost of goods over the same period does a climb like that, zomg!

Also note that the currency exchange rate is pegged currently at 6.2 Bolivars to the US$, having been just devalued from 4.3. The black market rate last I heard was lose to 15 to the US$, the number of Bolivars in circulation might even take that number higher.

**Cristiano** · 03-11-2013, 06:54 PM

Chavez's BFF is in hot water back in Tehran:

Ahmadinejad's scandalous moment with Hugo Chavez's mother - World News

Richie Waves · 03-11-2013, 08:11 PM

Now that is funny..

03-08-2013, 10:20 PM	#138 (permalink)
Edav Nomad Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2007 Posts: 10,698 My Mood: SL Join Date: June 12, 2003	RE: Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez Has Died Wasn't Chavez the one who shut down TV and radio stations because they spoke out against him? __________________

03-11-2013, 03:10 AM	#148 (permalink)
Kamilah Hauptmann Git, Cat! *SLU Supporter* Never had Facebook Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Caledon Lionsgate Posts: 987 My Mood:	Any stats geeks out there? Trying to make some sense of some numbers here: World Development Indicators - Google Public Data Explorer and World Development Indicators - Google Public Data Explorer First shows poverty headcount overall diminishing poverty headcount, the second shows overall household expenditures rising from under $2500 per capita to a little over $3500. But when you look at this: Venezuela Consumer Price Index (CPI) I suspect the government official reported poverty level hasn't been adjusted in a decade. I also can't figure out what Venezuela deems to be the poverty level. It's nice and all that more 'dollars' are able to be spent, but when the cost of goods over the same period does a climb like that, zomg! Also note that the currency exchange rate is pegged currently at 6.2 Bolivars to the US$, having been just devalued from 4.3. The black market rate last I heard was lose to 15 to the US$, the number of Bolivars in circulation might even take that number higher. __________________ Some days you herp a derp, sometimes the derp herps you.

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03-07-2013, 11:06 AM	#127 (permalink)
Dancien Graves Now with less padding Join Date: Nov 2007 Posts: 9,785 My Mood: Awards: 1	Well I guess if it's on the internet, it must be true.

03-08-2013, 08:09 PM	#137 (permalink)
Eric Knox Senior Member Duke, Duke, Duke, Duke of Earl.... Join Date: Aug 2012 Location: Knoxville, Tennessee Posts: 446 My Mood:	America is by no means a right wing country. It just seems that way because the right wing conservative whackos are more outspoken.

03-08-2013, 11:02 PM	#140 (permalink)
Jahar Aabye Script Kitty Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Between our dreams and actions, lies this world Posts: 8,035 SL Join Date: 2/16/2007 Business: Black Operations Client: Singularity	Meh, Reporters Without Borders still ranks Venezuela at 117th in press freedom. They have some more general information about the shutdown of several stations for refusing to air Chavez speeches as well. World Report - Venezuela - Reporters Without Borders

03-09-2013, 01:15 AM	#141 (permalink)
Dancien Graves Now with less padding Join Date: Nov 2007 Posts: 9,785 My Mood: Awards: 1	I had a dream! I had a dream that one day motherfuckers would cite their sources! I had a dream that one day people couldn't randomly pull numbers out of their asses 99% of the time (See what I did there?)!

03-10-2013, 08:23 PM	#146 (permalink)
Cristiano Hive Mind Director Amish Mafia 4EVER Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Miami, FL Posts: 23,090 My Mood: SL Join Date: Dec 2002 Business: ANOmations Client: Viewer 2 Blog Entries: 18	Venezuelan opposition leader Capriles will run

03-11-2013, 06:54 PM	#149 (permalink)
Cristiano Hive Mind Director Amish Mafia 4EVER Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Miami, FL Posts: 23,090 My Mood: SL Join Date: Dec 2002 Business: ANOmations Client: Viewer 2 Blog Entries: 18	Chavez's BFF is in hot water back in Tehran: Ahmadinejad's scandalous moment with Hugo Chavez's mother - World News

03-11-2013, 08:11 PM	#150 (permalink)
Richie Waves Banned "jon" he does it!! Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Offaly, Republic of Ireland Posts: 16,827 My Mood: SL Join Date: 27/06/2005 Client: Phoenix & imprudence	Now that is funny..

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