Logo

Jahar Aabye · 03-08-2013, 05:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cindy Claveau

That may be. But I don't see how it invalidates my point that atheists suffer prejudice and bigotry from believers, even believers in the same family.

There seems to be this prevailing "nah, atheists don't have it so bad" sentiment in this thread. I think that's dangerously naive and uninformed.

Move me to Europe or UK and let's compare the treatment. I don't think other countries can hold a candle to the US when it comes to bigotry against atheism/non-belief.

Edinburgh, please. I loved the castle there. I'll watch for the tickets.

I think you'd find that you'd be similarly welcome in someplace like Washington, DC* or NYC or LA. One reason is because of the many different religions that can be found there, so if most of the neighborhood goes to different churches/synagogues/mosques, the fact that you don't go to the same church as your neighbor (or even if it's no church at all) isn't remarkable. I believe those cities also have organized Secular Humanist organizations who also participate in a lot of the charitable faith-based charity work like food banks and battered women's shelters that the religious groups donate to as well.

Also, it's not that people are saying "atheists don't have it so bad", but rather than a lot of the issues that apply to atheists also apply to other minority religious groups. And you'll notice that those groups tend to be found in these big cities. There's a good reason for that.

*including Southern Maryland and Northern Virginia (North of Bull Run, at least, and yes the irony does not escape me)

Nika Talaj · 03-08-2013, 05:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cindy Claveau

Edinburgh, please. I loved the castle there.

Be careful what you wish for. Sweet lord of love, THE WEATHER! There's a reason Macbeth went mad.

It is partially mitigated by the fact that the city is completely filled with Scots, single malt and to-die-for salmon. 3 of my favorite things, but THE RAIN THE FOG THE WIND THE SLEET OH GODS THE COLD WET WIND

Nika Talaj · 03-08-2013, 05:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jahar Aabye

Also, it's not that people are saying "atheists don't have it so bad", but rather than a lot of the issues that apply to atheists also apply to other minority religious groups.

So I think I understand. Your argument is, "Please shut up all you atheists who are indeed being discriminated against, because the same thing is happening to avowed Jains in Podunk, Arkansas."

Therefore we can close all the foodbanks in the U.S., because people are starving in Bangla Desh, yes?

Just because other people have misfortunes does not mean you shouldn't fight the misfortune that you personally are experiencing. Such deflection arguments did not work when used against Gays, did not work against the Blacks, and are not fucking working with me. You seem like an intelligent person, up your game, dude.

Lucifer Baphomet · 03-08-2013, 05:33 PM

How I see this whole issue....

so you have these fundie christians in power... and they put Christian iconography on a public builfing.

So you get Atheists saying "I don't want this christian iconography on this public building, it's inappropriate"

You get Jews saying "I don't want this christian iconography on this public building, it's inappropriate"

You get pagans saying "I don't want this christian iconography on this public building, it's inappropriate"

you get muslims saying "I don't want this christian iconography on this public building, it's inappropriate"

You get reasonable christans saying "I don't want this christian iconography on this public building, it's inappropriate"

and at the end of it all you get the Atheist saying.... "Hey, you jews reasonable christians, muslims, pagans etc are all part of the problem because you believe in stupid fairy tales and worship fictional evil entities, why not just go godless"

Nika Talaj · 03-08-2013, 05:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lucifer Baphomet

and at the end of it all you get the Atheist saying.... "Hey, you jews reasonable christians, muslims, pagans etc are all part of the problem because you believe in stupid fairy tales and worship fictional evil entities, why not just go godless"

Feh. No, actually you have all the groups you cite joining Americans United so they can work together on this issue. Though I've never thought removing Christian symbols from historic buildings was worth fighting over ... Americans United will take that on, as well as more significant lobbying for true religious freedom through separation of church and state.

Atheists, Christians, and reasonable people of all faiths working together for a better country. Amazing, no?

Zaida Gearbox · 03-08-2013, 06:09 PM

Really, I never thought about atheists being discriminated against until I met you mugs.

Barry Winterwolf · 03-08-2013, 06:18 PM

Yeah sure, would you let one eat your daughter?

I should put a smilie on that huh?

Wrong Weatherwax · 03-08-2013, 06:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lucifer Baphomet

and at the end of it all you get the Atheist saying.... "Hey, you jews reasonable christians, muslims, pagans etc are all part of the problem because you believe in stupid fairy tales and worship fictional evil entities, why not just go godless"

I don't disagree that yes, there are some atheists who feel that way generally but I'd hesitate to call it even a majority of atheists or that the point of the campaign was based around that thought process. Maybe its a subjective issue, but it seems more like the point of these campaigns seems to simply be that being godless is better than being associated with these kind of thoughts. If that makes Christians (since they are the primary subject of this campaign) question the words of people who claim to embody "good Christianity" then I'm not entirely sure that's a bad thing.

Ishina · 03-08-2013, 07:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lucifer Baphomet

How I see this whole issue....

so you have these fundie christians in power... and they put Christian iconography on a public builfing.

So you get Atheists saying "I don't want this christian iconography on this public building, it's inappropriate"

You get Jews saying "I don't want this christian iconography on this public building, it's inappropriate"

You get pagans saying "I don't want this christian iconography on this public building, it's inappropriate"

you get muslims saying "I don't want this christian iconography on this public building, it's inappropriate"

You get reasonable christans saying "I don't want this christian iconography on this public building, it's inappropriate"

and at the end of it all you get the Atheist saying.... "Hey, you jews reasonable christians, muslims, pagans etc are all part of the problem because you believe in stupid fairy tales and worship fictional evil entities, why not just go godless"

But you're missing out hundreds of steps before you get to "the end of it all". The disenchantment with religion in general is not the end conclusion of just seeing Christian iconography. It's symptomatic of the wider sense of dangerous and crazy we get from religion overall, a disenchantment informed by uncountable instances of abuse and stupidity from around the globe.

Also, belief in fairytales and fictional entities are perfectly sound reasons to voice objection to those other religions. I don't need to see some kind of overt public abuse to have reasons to object to all of those religions on intellectual and philosophical grounds.

Jahar Aabye · 03-08-2013, 07:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ishina

But you're missing out hundreds of steps before you get to "the end of it all". The disenchantment with religion in general is not the end conclusion of just seeing Christian iconography. It's symptomatic of the wider sense of dangerous and crazy we get from religion overall, a disenchantment informed by uncountable instances of abuse and stupidity from around the globe.

Also, belief in fairytales and fictional entities are perfectly sound reasons to voice objection to those other religions. I don't need to see some kind of overt public abuse to have reasons to object to all of those religions on intellectual and philosophical grounds.

What I find ironic, in terms of lack of introspective reasoning, is that you somehow believe that the second paragraph is in no way related to what you were discussing in the first.

I'll give you a hint: the "dangerous and crazy" people you're talking about? They usually said the sort of stuff in your second paragraph when discussing other religions.

Ishina · 03-08-2013, 07:58 PM

The fuck are you talking about?

**Cindy Claveau** · 03-08-2013, 10:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lucifer Baphomet

How I see this whole issue....

so you have these fundie christians in power... and they put Christian iconography on a public builfing.

So you get Atheists saying "I don't want this christian iconography on this public building, it's inappropriate"

You get Jews saying "I don't want this christian iconography on this public building, it's inappropriate"

You get pagans saying "I don't want this christian iconography on this public building, it's inappropriate"

you get muslims saying "I don't want this christian iconography on this public building, it's inappropriate"

You get reasonable christans saying "I don't want this christian iconography on this public building, it's inappropriate"

and at the end of it all you get the Atheist saying.... "Hey, you jews reasonable christians, muslims, pagans etc are all part of the problem because you believe in stupid fairy tales and worship fictional evil entities, why not just go godless"

It has nothing to do with "inappropriate".

It has everything to do with separation of church and state (the First Amendment) -- eg, MY tax dollars being used to promote someone else's religion.

There's supposed to be Constitutional protection against that, but of course the fundamentalists don't think separation of church and state really exists.

Because we're a "Christian Nation" founded on Biblical principles.

They're serious.

Lucifer Baphomet · 03-08-2013, 10:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cindy Claveau

It has nothing to do with "inappropriate".

It has everything to do with separation of church and state (the First Amendment) -- eg, MY tax dollars being used to promote someone else's religion.

There's supposed to be Constitutional protection against that, but of course the fundamentalists don't think separation of church and state really exists.

Because we're a "Christian Nation" founded on Biblical principles.

They're serious.

It has EVERYTHING to do with inappropriate, That's why your constitution is against it

Jahar Aabye · 03-08-2013, 10:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cindy Claveau

It has nothing to do with "inappropriate".

It has everything to do with separation of church and state (the First Amendment) -- eg, MY tax dollars being used to promote someone else's religion.

There's supposed to be Constitutional protection against that, but of course the fundamentalists don't think separation of church and state really exists.

Because we're a "Christian Nation" founded on Biblical principles.

They're serious.

I think part of the point is that many of the people who are also fighting to keep a strong separation between church and state are religious people as well. So rhetoric that fails to account for this and irresponsibly attributes the problems of theocracy to religious belief in general are not very productive if your main concern is separation of church and state.

It's the lack of differentiation between religious moderates and religious fundamentalists that gets tiring.

pancake · 03-08-2013, 10:57 PM

True story, overheard tonight in my vehicle...

Me: Son, you do realize that technically your mother is going to hell right?

Son: Don't worry mom, there is no hell. I never told you this but I stopped believing in god before Santa Claus.

Chip Midnight · 03-08-2013, 11:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jahar Aabye

It's the lack of differentiation between religious moderates and religious fundamentalists that gets tiring.

We're talking about intolerance. I fail to see why every single statement about religion that's not complimentary has to have an added disclaimer or be prefaced with a preemptive apology in order to spare the feelings of people who quite obviously aren't being talked about in the first place. It's bloody tiring.

**Cindy Claveau** · 03-08-2013, 11:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chip Midnight

We're talking about intolerance. I fail to see why every single statement about religion that's not complimentary has to have an added disclaimer or be prefaced with a preemptive apology in order to spare the feelings of people who quite obviously aren't being talked about in the first place. It's bloody tiring.

All you Methodists, get off my lawn!

**Io Zeno** · 03-08-2013, 11:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cindy Claveau

Your anecdotal experience does not make for a general rule of thumb. I'm glad you don't know anyone who's had to deal with this shit, or at least believe you don't.

I'm probably not alone in my experiences so this is my own anecdotal story. I come from a fairly moderate Congregationalist background. My father tried hard to be tolerant and understanding. But when I announced to my siblings and parents that I'd had enough of religious hypocrisy and was now a confirmed atheist, it created a breach in my family with me on one side and them on the other.

They won't discuss religion with me now, even though I've never criticized their beliefs. We haven't had any coming together of the minds to try to understand each other - it's a huge stinking elephant in the room.

They make casual asides like "sorry Cindy" when they express their religious opinions in conversation.

And worst of all, my father tried to convince me before he died that he'd had a revelation and KNEW - not believed, KNEW - only believers were going to have an afterlife.

When I didn't fall for that one, my mother came out and said "I hope you get right with God".

Even after my father's death, my sister has tried to convince me that she has dreams where Dad comes to her and wants her to pass along a message that there really is a heaven. I respond that it must be her subconscious worrying about me but that I'm just fine, thank you.

I haven't been ostracized, but I've been treated differently, excluded and condescended to since letting them know what I believe. I wasn't asked to give my father's eulogy, probably because I'd refused to pray when we met with the minister. I didn't care, as I had my own way of grieving but you cannot tell me that my non-belief hasn't had any negative affects on my relationship with my family.

So don't try to tell me. There is a very distinct and pervasive prejudice against non-belief, and the religious billboards are only a symptom of an ongoing problem. So pardon me if I don't have any sympathy for religious bigots and find myself empathizing with the ones that remind people you don't need God to be 'good'.

As for the bolded part. I never said any such thing. Where did I say sympathize with religious bigots? Where did I say you had to somehow reject the sentiment of the billboards?

As for the rest. Your family are crazymaking, annoying Christians. My family is crazy, clinically. They are your family and there are a million versions of "they are trying to drive me to suicide". But I don't hear from you that they don't love you.

Frankly, I would rather be able to lie and say I found Jesus than deal with when are you going to get married or I will never have any grandchildren, it's a lot less of a commitment. Or have to remember visits from the police during my childhood or visits to mental institutions for decades and "hiding the knives". Or find myself having a nervous breakdown at 16.

Families are crazy. If they are too crazy, people can and do limit, sometimes permanently, their contact with them.

However, what I was addressing was the idea that you literally had to lie about your atheism for fear you would be found so despicable, they would no longer love you. That is not what you have described, here. You have described a crazymaking family of the Christian variety. It isn't "persecution". It's life.

Gays have had to deal with this for decades and frankly, I've lost count of horror stories of family abuse and ostracism from them, I had to strain to remember tales of athiests being thrown out of their homes as teenagers because they rejected Jesus. And then their families were fucking looney toons insane.

Amity Slade · 03-08-2013, 11:48 PM

Really, these discussions ping-pong way too much about talking about religion in a very broad sense and to discussing specific groups/beliefs/practices. It it sometimes difficult to tell from post-to-post whether we are still being broad or back to specifics. And everyone is emotionally touched by these topics. Using as much care as possible to say what you mean is probably helpful.

**Io Zeno** · 03-09-2013, 12:01 AM

I will just say this and I am really done.

I DO sympathize with the prejudice athiests deal with and I DO agree it is real.

However. We (those of us in the US) live in a country which has struggled, violently over civil rights, women's rights, gay rights. And there is no getting around comparison so courting it by claiming that you "live in fear" because you are in the deep south immediately conjures up images of children and water hoses and dogs being set on them so if you want to make a case, be a bit self-aware with the rhetoric.

And further, we ALL, those of us who are fair minded, tolerant, liberal in the most philosophical sense of the word, suffer from religious zealotry.

You don't have to be an atheist to be denied an abortion because the Christian Right has closed them down, do you understand? They are enemies of progress, period. And it doesn't matter to them if you are an atheist or a pagan or a Hindu, you are the enemy. I think that conflating the two issues, the prejudice that athiests, specifically, have to deal with and the threat that the religious extremists pose to all of us is what causes a lot of argument here.

That and the fact that you can't seem to be able to talk about the threat that the religious extremists pose without, inevitably, insulting everyone of any faith. It's like clockwork on this forum, I could set a watch to the post that will use the term "Imaginary Friend" or "Sky God" or talking about the stupidity and backwardness of faith and lets do another round of how many wars did it start.

You don't want my support, then you are fools because as Cindy insists, there aren't that many of you. Unless all you want is a circle-jerk of self-pity and another round of "just how fucking stupid are those people anyway". I'm sure that will get you the progress you claim to want.

**Cindy Claveau** · 03-09-2013, 08:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Io Zeno

I will just say this and I am really done.

Quote:

That and the fact that you can't seem to be able to talk about the threat that the religious extremists pose without, inevitably, insulting everyone of any faith. It's like clockwork on this forum, I could set a watch to the post that will use the term "Imaginary Friend" or "Sky God" or talking about the stupidity and backwardness of faith and lets do another round of how many wars did it start.

Righhhhhht. Because the opposite of stating an opinion concerning the existence of supernatural beings is always religious oppression, perversion of science and infiltrating our government to subvert secular protections.

I soooooo get it now.

Innula Zenovka · 03-09-2013, 09:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cindy Claveau

Righhhhhht. Because the opposite of stating an opinion concerning the existence of supernatural beings is always religious oppression, perversion of science and infiltrating our government to subvert secular protections.

I soooooo get it now.

No. I don't think Io was saying anything of the sort.

I think she was simply making the observation, which may or may not be accurate, that discussions about the various threats posed by religious extremists frequently tend, sooner or later, to degenerate into an (in context, irrelevant) argument about Imaginary Friends and so on.

**Cindy Claveau** · 03-09-2013, 09:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Innula Zenovka

No. I don't think Io was saying anything of the sort.

I think she was simply making the observation, which may or may not be accurate, that discussions about the various threats posed by religious extremists frequently tend, sooner or later, to degenerate into an (in context, irrelevant) argument about Imaginary Friends and so on.

It always fascinates me how atheists (or non-believers in general) can be degraded, name-called, belittled and marginalized in society (I'm not talking about here) but the minute an atheist says anything remotely sacrilegious, there's an emotional overreaction and we're called big meanies for "not respecting someone's beliefs".

Islam even forbids a whisper of sacrilege on pain of death. (Salman Rushdie?)

I'm not one of those who have routinely "insulted Christians" here, but I do see the inequality that comes with this idea that something is too sacred to satirize. Satire isn't the same as genuine discussion, but it is a cherished part of my country's "free speech" -- right up until the topic is Christianity. All other religions and non-beliefs are fair game.

Johnnie Carling · 03-09-2013, 09:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cindy Claveau

That may be. But I don't see how it invalidates my point that atheists suffer prejudice and bigotry from believers, even believers in the same family.

I'm not trying to invalidate your point, what i'm saying is the prejudices are born from the differences between the religions (or lack of the same)

Like you pointed out.. when members of your family switched to other Christian faiths a wedge was put in between family members. But when you said you were an atheist that being even more distant there was a larger wedge and broke you apart from your family. I bet if your brother was a Hare Krishna, he would be separated from your family just as much as you were.

And like I said if I were on your shoes, your family might see something like this in my Holy Book "AL III:51. With my Hawk's head I peck at the eyes of Jesus as he hangs upon the cross." and I would hazard a guess I would be even more ostracized than you are.

Again I will repeat.. I am NOT saying that atheists do not suffer from prejudice and bigotry, what i'm saying is the prejudice and bigotry comes from the differences between beliefs, and not the beliefs or lack of them themselves.

Ishina · 03-09-2013, 09:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Io Zeno

You don't have to be an atheist to be denied an abortion because the Christian Right has closed them down, do you understand? They are enemies of progress, period. And it doesn't matter to them if you are an atheist or a pagan or a Hindu, you are the enemy. I think that conflating the two issues, the prejudice that athiests, specifically, have to deal with and the threat that the religious extremists pose to all of us is what causes a lot of argument here.

That and the fact that you can't seem to be able to talk about the threat that the religious extremists pose without, inevitably, insulting everyone of any faith. It's like clockwork on this forum, I could set a watch to the post that will use the term "Imaginary Friend" or "Sky God" or talking about the stupidity and backwardness of faith and lets do another round of how many wars did it start.

You don't want my support, then you are fools because as Cindy insists, there aren't that many of you. Unless all you want is a circle-jerk of self-pity and another round of "just how fucking stupid are those people anyway". I'm sure that will get you the progress you claim to want.

Even if we do join hand in hand like a Coca-Cola advert and fight the greater evils of the world, this does not mean that atheists can't also object to theistic claims in general parlance. We have opinions about things.

If we were to fight the Christian Right against anti-abortion measures, I'd still strongly disagree with a Hindu about the nature of the universe. I'd still think theism was a logically incoherent position. I'd still think Buddhists have some wacko ideas. I'd still think the Bible is a joke book. I'd still think Jesus is a mythological figure. I'd still think Jews are ridiculous for praying at a wall, and that prayer in general is a vapid, hollow gesture. I'd still think Islam is the antithesis of equality and free thought. I'd still think creationism is the most rock-bottom stupid idea I have ever heard. I'd still think godless is better than god.

These views don't just evaporate because we happen to share a common goal in a certain context.

03-08-2013, 05:33 PM	#354 (permalink)
Lucifer Baphomet Nobel Peace Prize Winner *SLU Supporter* Zenophile Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Darkmere Posts: 21,110 My Mood: Business: Radio Free Darkmere Awards: 1	How I see this whole issue.... so you have these fundie christians in power... and they put Christian iconography on a public builfing. So you get Atheists saying "I don't want this christian iconography on this public building, it's inappropriate" You get Jews saying "I don't want this christian iconography on this public building, it's inappropriate" You get pagans saying "I don't want this christian iconography on this public building, it's inappropriate" you get muslims saying "I don't want this christian iconography on this public building, it's inappropriate" You get reasonable christans saying "I don't want this christian iconography on this public building, it's inappropriate" and at the end of it all you get the Atheist saying.... "Hey, you jews reasonable christians, muslims, pagans etc are all part of the problem because you believe in stupid fairy tales and worship fictional evil entities, why not just go godless" __________________

03-08-2013, 10:57 PM	#365 (permalink)
pancake SLU Fluffer Join Date: Feb 2011 Location: The True North Posts: 3,543 My Mood: SL Join Date: 2007 Client: Usually Catznip but I dabble a lot in others Awards: 1	True story, overheard tonight in my vehicle... Me: Son, you do realize that technically your mother is going to hell right? Son: Don't worry mom, there is no hell. I never told you this but I stopped believing in god before Santa Claus. __________________ My blog and my pictures "It's one thing to have a difference of opinion, it is quite another to be a consistently toxic ass" ~ Cristiano

03-09-2013, 12:01 AM	#370 (permalink)
Io Zeno Bananas *SLU Supporter* Join Date: Jul 2007 Posts: 21,150 My Mood: Blog Entries: 1 Awards: 1	I will just say this and I am really done. I DO sympathize with the prejudice athiests deal with and I DO agree it is real. However. We (those of us in the US) live in a country which has struggled, violently over civil rights, women's rights, gay rights. And there is no getting around comparison so courting it by claiming that you "live in fear" because you are in the deep south immediately conjures up images of children and water hoses and dogs being set on them so if you want to make a case, be a bit self-aware with the rhetoric. And further, we ALL, those of us who are fair minded, tolerant, liberal in the most philosophical sense of the word, suffer from religious zealotry. You don't have to be an atheist to be denied an abortion because the Christian Right has closed them down, do you understand? They are enemies of progress, period. And it doesn't matter to them if you are an atheist or a pagan or a Hindu, you are the enemy. I think that conflating the two issues, the prejudice that athiests, specifically, have to deal with and the threat that the religious extremists pose to all of us is what causes a lot of argument here. That and the fact that you can't seem to be able to talk about the threat that the religious extremists pose without, inevitably, insulting everyone of any faith. It's like clockwork on this forum, I could set a watch to the post that will use the term "Imaginary Friend" or "Sky God" or talking about the stupidity and backwardness of faith and lets do another round of how many wars did it start. You don't want my support, then you are fools because as Cindy insists, there aren't that many of you. Unless all you want is a circle-jerk of self-pity and another round of "just how fucking stupid are those people anyway". I'm sure that will get you the progress you claim to want. Last edited by Io Zeno; 03-09-2013 at 12:10 AM.

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Email this Page
Display Modes
Linear Mode Switch to Hybrid Mode Switch to Threaded Mode

03-08-2013, 06:09 PM	#356 (permalink)
Zaida Gearbox Senior Member I finally got it all together, but now I forget where I put it. Join Date: Sep 2010 Location: Steelhead, Winterfell, New Babbage Posts: 3,805	Really, I never thought about atheists being discriminated against until I met you mugs.

03-08-2013, 06:18 PM	#357 (permalink)
Barry Winterwolf Member drive by Join Date: Feb 2010 Posts: 68 My Mood:	Yeah sure, would you let one eat your daughter? I should put a smilie on that huh?

03-08-2013, 07:58 PM	#361 (permalink)
Ishina Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 3,859	The fuck are you talking about?

03-08-2013, 11:48 PM	#369 (permalink)
Amity Slade Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2010 Posts: 3,045 Scrabble Blast Champion!	Really, these discussions ping-pong way too much about talking about religion in a very broad sense and to discussing specific groups/beliefs/practices. It it sometimes difficult to tell from post-to-post whether we are still being broad or back to specifics. And everyone is emotionally touched by these topics. Using as much care as possible to say what you mean is probably helpful.

Logo

Site Navigation