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**Joshua Nightshade** · 09-19-2012, 07:13 PM

I saw this linked via a friend of mine on Facebook, and it's line with recent discussions we've had here. I thought it was a great article, personally.

Not Wanting Kids Is Entirely Normal - Jessica Valenti - The Atlantic

Quote:

In 2008, Nebraska decriminalized child abandonment. The move was part of a "safe haven" law designed to address increased rates of infanticide in the state. Like other safe haven laws, parents in Nebraska who felt unprepared to care for their babies could drop them off at a designated location without fear of arrest and prosecution. But legislators made a major logistical error: They failed to implement an age limitation for dropped-off children.

Within just weeks of the law passing, parents started dropping off their kids. But here's the rub: None of them were infants. A couple of months in, 36 children had been left in state hospitals and police stations. Twenty-two of the children were over 13 years old. A 51-year-old grandmother dropped off a 12-year-old boy. One father dropped off his entire family -- nine children from ages one to 17. Others drove from neighboring states to drop off their children once they heard that they could abandon them without repercussion.

The Nebraska state government, realizing the tremendous mistake it had made, held a special session of the legislature to rewrite the law in order to add an age limitation. Governor Dave Heineman said the change would "put the focus back on the original intent of these laws, which is saving newborn babies and exempting a parent from prosecution for child abandonment. It should also prevent those outside the state from bringing their children to Nebraska in an attempt to secure services."

On November 21, 2008, the last day that the safe haven law was in effect for children of all ages, a mother from Yolo County, California, drove over 1,200 miles to the Kimball County Hospital in Nebraska where she left her 14-year-old son.

What happened in Nebraska raises the question: If there were no consequences, how many of us would give up our kids? After all, child abandonment is nothing new and it's certainly not rare in the United States. Over 400,000 children are in the foster care system waiting to be placed in homes, thousands of parents relinquish their children every year, and some are even sending their adoptive children back to their home countries with apology letters pinned like grocery lists to their chests. Whether it's because of hardship or not, many Americans are giving up on parenthood.

In February 2009, someone calling herself Ann logged onto the website Secret Confessions and wrote three sentences: "I am depressed. I hate being a mom. I also hate being a stay at home mom too!" Over three years later, the thread of comments is still going strong with thousands of responses -- the site usually garners only 10 or so comments for every "confession." Our anonymous Ann had hit a nerve.

One woman who got pregnant at 42 wrote, "I hate being a mother too. Every day is the same. And to think I won't be free of it until I am like 60 and then my life will be over." Another, identifying herself only as k'smom, said, "I feel so trapped, anxious, and overwhelmed. I love my daughter and she's well taken care of but this is not the path I would have taken given a second chance."

Gianna wrote, "I love my son, but I hate being a mother. It has been a thankless, monotonous, exhausting, irritating and oppressive job. Motherhood feels like a prison sentence. I can't wait until I am paroled when my son turns 18 and hopefully goes far away to college." One D.C.-based mom even said that although she was against abortion before having her son, now she would "run to the abortion clinic" if she got pregnant again.

The responses -- largely from women who identify themselves as financially stable -- spell out something less explicit than well-worn reasons for parental unhappiness such as poverty and a lack of support. These women simply don't feel that motherhood is all it's cracked up to be, and if given a second chance, they wouldn't do it again.

/snip

**Joshua Nightshade** · 09-19-2012, 07:14 PM

Also:

Quote:

American culture can't accept the reality of a woman who does not want to be a mother. It goes against everything we've been taught to think about women and how desperately they want babies. If we're to believe the media and pop culture, women -- even teen girls -- are forever desperate for a baby. It's our greatest desire.

The truth is, most women spend the majority of their lives trying not to get pregnant. According to the Guttmacher Institute, by the time a woman with two children is in her mid-40s she will have spent only five years trying to become pregnant, being pregnant, and not being at risk for getting pregnant following a birth. But to avoid getting pregnant before or after those two births, she would had had to refrain from sex or use contraception for an average of 25 years. Almost all American women (99 percent), ages 15-44, who have had sexual intercourse use some form of birth control. The second most popular form of birth control after the Pill? Sterilization. And now, more than ever, women are increasingly choosing forms of contraception that are for long-term use. Since 2005, for example, IUD use has increased by a whopping 161 percent. That's a long part of life and a lot of effort to avoid parenthood!

Bold mine.

DoctorZen · 09-19-2012, 07:28 PM

My mother desperately wanted a baby. She didn't want a child.

Think that pretty much speaks for itself.

**Shiloh Lyric** · 09-19-2012, 07:28 PM

I love my kids and I love being their mother. I, personally, don't feel it's at all thankless nor monotonous. In fact, it's something new everyday. But I had my first child at 29 and my 2nd at 37. So, yeah, got my tubes tied. Because there was NO WAY I wanted to raise another baby in my 40s. Plus, I just felt 2 was a good amount for me. There were a couple of times after my son was born that I thought "oh, well, maybe I could have managed one more". But that's just baby fever. Give me a little one to hold and cuddle for a bit, and that "desire" is fulfilled.

But, I guess I can understand how some people just aren't cut out for it, or feel that there is not gratification in it. I just love kids. My own most of all, but any kid, really.

There's a family at our church who just had their 4th (and last) child. Their first 2 were boys, last 2 girls. The *older* girl (is almost 3), is my best little buddy. And she knows it. She never sits with her parents at church, always with me. Has ever since birth pretty much. And I love that. But not all people, and not all women, have that affinity for children. I know a lot of adults who simply can't relate to kids at all. There's nothing at all wrong with it.

However, I do think that before you DO have kids, you'd better think long and hard. There ARE ways to avoid pregnancy. I must admit to thinking that simply abandoning children, especially older ones, is just wrong. A wrong that can, and most likely will, do irreparable damage to that child. Unless they're being freed from an abusive situation, in which case, there's already damage to some extent.

Not wanting children isn't a problem at all...but having them and then deciding you don't want them is, IMHO.

**bronxelf** · 09-19-2012, 07:34 PM

I just simply have ceased to give the remotest tin shit about whether it's "normal" or not. I have ***NEVER** wanted kids. Ever. Not for one second, ever.

The world can just fucking cope.

Lloyd Newman · 09-19-2012, 07:37 PM

Not wanting kids is NOT "normal", from the standpoint of either biology or statistics. There is a biological genetic imperative to reproduce that IS the norm for all species. If it became "normal" for members of any species not to want to reproduce, then there's a word for that species: "extinct".

However, there's nothing WRONG with CHOOSING not to have kids (Which may or may NOT be the same as not WANTING kids)... and there are quite a few people around that SHOULD have chosen not to have kids.

And no matter what people say about raising kids... the hardest part is letting them go.

Maelstrom Eyre · 09-19-2012, 07:38 PM

This makes me feel even better about being childfree. . .even when people try to convince me that "I'll change my mind" and "it's different when they're your own kids."

Not just for my own sake, but for the sake of those kids. . .including teenagers. . .who were simply abandoned by their own parents. What a horrible thing to experience. I knew kids in high school whose parents told them that they wish they'd had an abortion instead. They had a pretty screwed up home life to start with, but that's still a terrible thing to say to another person.

It may sound odd, but I think I care more about the children I'll never have and don't even want, than some people care about the children they do have. I would not want to have a child grow up knowing that I regret having them.

Thanks again for posting that article.

**Joshua Nightshade** · 09-19-2012, 07:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lloyd Newman

Not wanting kids is NOT "normal", from the standpoint of either biology or statistics.

Rock Chick · 09-19-2012, 07:44 PM

Frankly it shouldn't matter whether it's consider "normal" to want kids or not, you either want them or not, that should be enough. Of course things are not that simple & wanting to have them doesn't mean it would even be a good idea to have them.

Society is so obsessed with what is considered "normal", it's like we're expected to be fucking drones. I don't think I ever saw people who didn't want to have child as abnormal or that there was something wrong with them and why should I?

**Sredni Eel** · 09-19-2012, 07:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bronxelf

I just simply have ceased to give the remotest tin shit about whether it's "normal" or not. I have ***NEVER** wanted kids. Ever. Not for one second, ever.

The world can just fucking cope.

I'm right there with you. In fact, I went and got myself fixed when I was 25 just for added security.

**Beebo Brink** · 09-19-2012, 07:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lloyd Newman

Not wanting kids is NOT "normal", from the standpoint of either biology or statistics. There is a biological genetic imperative to reproduce that IS the norm for all species. If it became "normal" for members of any species not to want to reproduce, then there's a word for that species: "extinct".

You're equating having sex with wanting kids, and that's exactly what the OP article refutes. Men and women want sex and will go to great lengths to do it "safely" so pregnancy is not a result.

Animals do not have a choice because they do not conceptually understand the connection between sex and pregnancy and can't do much about it anyway. They are reliant on hormonal surges to provide maternal instincts, and those who don't have them abandon their young, who die. The species itself doesn't go extinct, it merely weeds out the individuals who aren't cut out for raising young.

But even in the animal world, there are species organized into social groups in which pregnancy is reserved for the alpha male and female and everyone else plays a supporting role. Humans do quite well (probably better) with only a subset of their individuals producing offspring; the strength of our survival is not in spawning more than any other species, it's in building a community in which a fewer number of offspring have a much higher chance of making it to adulthood.

So your "biological genetic imperative" is just so much jibber jabber.

Eris · 09-19-2012, 07:52 PM

You kids better start behaving right now, or we're going to Nebraska!

Daring Destiny · 09-19-2012, 07:52 PM

I love my children and wouldn't trade them for anything, that being said, what is my stake in whether other people have children or not? I rather wonder if people who insist that being childless is not normal are more than a bit jealous of their unfettered peers? Do people who are really happy with their own choices give that much thought and attention to the lives of others?

Zaida Gearbox · 09-19-2012, 07:55 PM

I would identify with the "I love my son," but on the whole parenthood sucked. Though i don't think it had anything to do with him. I was a single parent. I was so young when I had him. Then, I was so stressed by trying to juggle going to college, trying to have a job, and do a passable job raising the kid....

Having said that, me and the hubby aren't doing anything to prevent me coming down with a case of the babies. Part of me thinks having a baby would be nice, but I'm also pretty happy to just spoil my sister's kids. If we can really get the puppy I'll be stupidly happy. However, he is awesome with kids of all ages, and I thought he deserves a chance to be a parent. But, so far it hasn't happened. The main reason I care is because I feel like I let him down every month. But, now, I've got a whole bunch of people around me who are constantly like, "Maybe you're pregnant." I really do not need to feel like I'm letting them down too.

IF I did have a baby I'd be five hours away from all family support. The only support outside of my husband I would have would be a pair of women who are friends of his that I don't actually like all that much. I actually borderline dislike one of them. The other one is okay. But, neither one of them is someone I could ever be a close friend with, and neither one of them is someone I would want all up my butt putting her .02 into how we take care of/raise our kid.

Maelstrom Eyre · 09-19-2012, 07:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lloyd Newman

Not wanting kids is NOT "normal", from the standpoint of either biology or statistics. There is a biological genetic imperative to reproduce that IS the norm for all species. If it became "normal" for members of any species not to want to reproduce, then there's a word for that species: "extinct".

If we're going to go strictly by the biological drive to reproduce. . .animals - including mammals that normally take very good care of their offspring - also abandon their young.

Sometimes it's because there's something physically wrong with the baby that will prevent it from surviving. Or there is a shortage of food or water and the mother cannot provide food for herself and her young.

But sometimes, the mother just shows no interest in caring for its young. It happens in the wild, and it happens in domesticated species. They don't do any of the things they're "supposed" to do. In domesticated species, the only reason the offspring survives is with invervention by the human caretakers.

Mother Nature is not all cute little furry baby animals, and the concept of a parent abandoning its own young is far more "normal" and "natural" than a lot of people want to admit.

Fortunately, humans have the ability to say "no, not me. Not interested. But the sex idea still sounds good." I don't want to make a baby, but I enjoy the practice.

**Joshua Nightshade** · 09-19-2012, 07:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Beebo Brink

So your "biological genetic imperative" is just so much jibber jabber.

Human beings, cursed as they are with that whole "sentience" thing, constantly engage in things counter to biological impulses. Monogamy is not "normal" when you look at the overall animal kingdom and the shockingly rare number of species who engage in it, yet most human beings would tell you that's their ideal. Although I do ultimately suspect that a lot of that is a similar societal pressure, and the biological impulse is responsible for the startlingly high divorce and infidelity rate worldwide, but while it's a natural biological response for men to want to fuck everything that moves I somehow doubt Lloyd is brave enough to try that one on his wife.

As far as statistics go, that's the entire point of the article. Maybe Lloyd should try reading a link for once instead of immediately giving in to the biological response of "I have an opinion! To the keyboard!" the moment that neuron fires in his skull.

Rock Chick · 09-19-2012, 08:00 PM

Needing to have a certain amount of a species around to keep it from being extinct is not the same as some people just not wanting to reproduce, we have overpopulated countries already!

Lloyd Newman · 09-19-2012, 08:01 PM

Sex is just DNA's way of making more DNA.

**Joshua Nightshade** · 09-19-2012, 08:02 PM

You're hopeless.

**Ann Launay** · 09-19-2012, 08:02 PM

I really don't think the human race is in danger of going extinct due to some percentage of us not wanting to breed.

Daring Destiny · 09-19-2012, 08:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lloyd Newman

Sex is just DNA's way of making more DNA.

Must be quite a party being married to you.

Rock Chick · 09-19-2012, 08:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Joshua Nightshade

You're hopeless.

I worked that out ages ago!

Rock Chick · 09-19-2012, 08:09 PM

Man, I'm so glad I don't see sex the way Lloyd does, sex would be so boring and hardly ever happening for me in my life!

Daring Destiny · 09-19-2012, 08:10 PM

I'm trying that out on the spouse tonight. "Hey baby, lets open a bottle of wine and make some more DNA!"

Lloyd Newman · 09-19-2012, 08:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Maelstrom Eyre

If we're going to go strictly by the biological drive to reproduce. . .animals - including mammals that normally take very good care of their offspring - also abandon their young.

Sometimes it's because there's something physically wrong with the baby that will prevent it from surviving. Or there is a shortage of food or water and the mother cannot provide food for herself and her young.

But sometimes, the mother just shows no interest in caring for its young. It happens in the wild, and it happens in domesticated species. They don't do any of the things they're "supposed" to do. In domesticated species, the only reason the offspring survives is with invervention by the human caretakers.

Mother Nature is not all cute little furry baby animals, and the concept of a parent abandoning its own young is far more "normal" and "natural" than a lot of people want to admit.

Fortunately, humans have the ability to say "no, not me. Not interested. But the sex idea still sounds good." I don't want to make a baby, but I enjoy the practice.

Mother Nature is a royal bitch, in the worst possible way. Callous, absolutely unfeeling, and without regret or remorse. The one imperative is to continue and if possible, improve the species - any species that fails is written off as a bad job.

If food or water is short, then the mother abandons the young, preserving herself for future breeding. If the young is malformed or weak, then it is not worth spending the energy to protect and raise it. If the mother is immature or unskilled, then her first efforts to reproduce are likely to be unsuccessful. There's a steep and very unforgiving learning curve.

Humans are the only species that can overcome these assaults, and save infants that would otherwise, under the harsh laws of Mother Nature, perish.

09-19-2012, 07:28 PM	#3 (permalink)
DoctorZen In Significance 45% Mesh Resistant Join Date: Mar 2011 Posts: 1,560 My Mood: SL Join Date: 5/14/2009 Client: Firestorm & Phoenix	My mother desperately wanted a baby. She didn't want a child. Think that pretty much speaks for itself. __________________ "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." — Evelyn Beatrice Hall

09-19-2012, 07:34 PM	#5 (permalink)
bronxelf GAF *SLU Supporter* Goth when goth was. Also, socially unacceptable. Join Date: Dec 2010 Location: New York City Posts: 5,304 My Mood: SL Join Date: May 13, 2008 Business: Beautiful Freak/Club Gothika/Damned Good Design SL/House of Rain/Pale Empress Client: Firestorm.	I just simply have ceased to give the remotest tin shit about whether it's "normal" or not. I have *NEVER wanted kids. Ever. Not for one second, ever. The world can just fucking cope. __________________

09-19-2012, 07:37 PM	#6 (permalink)
Lloyd Newman CEO Fallen Angel Designs sutatS tidE Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Rigi Posts: 3,319 My Mood: SL Join Date: Late 2006 Business: Fallen Angel Designs Client: Firestorm 4	Not wanting kids is NOT "normal", from the standpoint of either biology or statistics. There is a biological genetic imperative to reproduce that IS the norm for all species. If it became "normal" for members of any species not to want to reproduce, then there's a word for that species: "extinct". However, there's nothing WRONG with CHOOSING not to have kids (Which may or may NOT be the same as not WANTING kids)... and there are quite a few people around that SHOULD have chosen not to have kids. And no matter what people say about raising kids... the hardest part is letting them go. __________________

09-19-2012, 07:38 PM	#7 (permalink)
Maelstrom Eyre is not a !@#$ing badger. Has a "fishy" odor, with a hint of "wet dog." Join Date: Jan 2010 Posts: 565 My Mood: SL Join Date: October 2009	This makes me feel even better about being childfree. . .even when people try to convince me that "I'll change my mind" and "it's different when they're your own kids." Not just for my own sake, but for the sake of those kids. . .including teenagers. . .who were simply abandoned by their own parents. What a horrible thing to experience. I knew kids in high school whose parents told them that they wish they'd had an abortion instead. They had a pretty screwed up home life to start with, but that's still a terrible thing to say to another person. It may sound odd, but I think I care more about the children I'll never have and don't even want, than some people care about the children they do have. I would not want to have a child grow up knowing that I regret having them. Thanks again for posting that article. __________________ Regardless of what other people say, my tendency to overreact and lose all perspective makes me a theatrically interesting person.

09-19-2012, 07:55 PM	#14 (permalink)
Zaida Gearbox Senior Member I finally got it all together, but now I forget where I put it. Join Date: Sep 2010 Location: Steelhead, Winterfell, New Babbage Posts: 3,763	I would identify with the "I love my son," but on the whole parenthood sucked. Though i don't think it had anything to do with him. I was a single parent. I was so young when I had him. Then, I was so stressed by trying to juggle going to college, trying to have a job, and do a passable job raising the kid.... Having said that, me and the hubby aren't doing anything to prevent me coming down with a case of the babies. Part of me thinks having a baby would be nice, but I'm also pretty happy to just spoil my sister's kids. If we can really get the puppy I'll be stupidly happy. However, he is awesome with kids of all ages, and I thought he deserves a chance to be a parent. But, so far it hasn't happened. The main reason I care is because I feel like I let him down every month. But, now, I've got a whole bunch of people around me who are constantly like, "Maybe you're pregnant." I really do not need to feel like I'm letting them down too. IF I did have a baby I'd be five hours away from all family support. The only support outside of my husband I would have would be a pair of women who are friends of his that I don't actually like all that much. I actually borderline dislike one of them. The other one is okay. But, neither one of them is someone I could ever be a close friend with, and neither one of them is someone I would want all up my butt putting her .02 into how we take care of/raise our kid. Last edited by Zaida Gearbox; 09-19-2012 at 08:02 PM.

09-19-2012, 07:52 PM	#12 (permalink)
Eris Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2011 Posts: 1,792	You kids better start behaving right now, or we're going to Nebraska!

09-19-2012, 07:52 PM	#13 (permalink)
Daring Destiny Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2007 Posts: 570 My Mood: SL Join Date: October 2007	I love my children and wouldn't trade them for anything, that being said, what is my stake in whether other people have children or not? I rather wonder if people who insist that being childless is not normal are more than a bit jealous of their unfettered peers? Do people who are really happy with their own choices give that much thought and attention to the lives of others?

09-19-2012, 08:00 PM	#17 (permalink)
Rock Chick A neko for all seasons Not always wearing her tail Join Date: Sep 2010 Location: Australia Posts: 9,797 My Mood: SL Join Date: September 2010 Client: Current v.3 & Catznip	Needing to have a certain amount of a species around to keep it from being extinct is not the same as some people just not wanting to reproduce, we have overpopulated countries already!

09-19-2012, 08:01 PM	#18 (permalink)
Lloyd Newman CEO Fallen Angel Designs sutatS tidE Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Rigi Posts: 3,319 My Mood: SL Join Date: Late 2006 Business: Fallen Angel Designs Client: Firestorm 4	Sex is just DNA's way of making more DNA.

09-19-2012, 08:02 PM	#19 (permalink)
Joshua Nightshade Lustful Cockmonster *SLU Supporter* Unedited Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Sydney, Australia Posts: 51,807 My Mood: SL Join Date: October 2004 Blog Entries: 1	You're hopeless.

09-19-2012, 08:02 PM	#20 (permalink)
Ann Launay Neko-licious™ *SLU Supporter* Crumpet Khaleesi Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 12,820 My Mood: SL Join Date: 8/8/06 Blog Entries: 4 Awards: 2	I really don't think the human race is in danger of going extinct due to some percentage of us not wanting to breed. __________________

09-19-2012, 08:09 PM	#23 (permalink)
Rock Chick A neko for all seasons Not always wearing her tail Join Date: Sep 2010 Location: Australia Posts: 9,797 My Mood: SL Join Date: September 2010 Client: Current v.3 & Catznip	Man, I'm so glad I don't see sex the way Lloyd does, sex would be so boring and hardly ever happening for me in my life!

09-19-2012, 08:10 PM	#24 (permalink)
Daring Destiny Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2007 Posts: 570 My Mood: SL Join Date: October 2007	I'm trying that out on the spouse tonight. "Hey baby, lets open a bottle of wine and make some more DNA!"

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