Darnk Yun

Words.

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Lucifer Baphomet

And further, tell it to gay people who enter into straight marriages either because of social pressure, or religious guilt,

Obviously they'd prefer to be having sex with someone they're actually sexually attracted to, but they end up in a marriage they'd rather not be in, and quite often producing children within that marriage.

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Jopsy Pendragon

Tell them what? That they're 'settling' by accepting something that's not what they prefer rather than suffer abstinence or social stigma? Isn't that exactly what they're doing?

I'm not talking about completely gay & straight people who don't have the choice of sex of their partners upon which to have a preference... I'm talking about the bisexuals that range from 'mostly straight' to 'mostly gay' who CAN choose, and have a preference in that choice.

Lucifer Baphomet

Right, I misread you in that case Jopsy.

Jopsy Pendragon

Sorry. It's a stupid point to quibble over. I was just still irked from when R.P. said he thought that "sexual preference" are exactly the right words to use... and I wanted to get it off my chest.

Something about it made me think of how rude it would be to ask one-handed person "Which hand do you prefer to write with?"

Lucifer Baphomet

Actually Jopsy, if you were an occupational therapist working with someone who had lost one hand, ascertaining which hand was preferred would be of paramount importance to work out exactly what level of input that person would requite.

If they'd lost their preferred hand you'd need to help them require far more skills than if it was the non preferred hand.

Saint Pipra of Peevington

Well, yeah, but if you weren't their occupational therapist, and especially if they were only born with the one hand, I think it could definitely be considered a tad insensitive.

Lucifer Baphomet

Indeed, but ultimately it's not the best parallel.

After all, it's not like your sexual orientation provides you with different sexual equipment.

Look at the instances of situational sexuality I outlined earlier.

I could feasibly, end up in prison for an extended period and enter into a sexual relationship with another man while in prison, despite being heterosexual.

While I believe our sexual orientation is innate, out sexual behaviours are subject to a number of situational and cultural modifiers, so, from that perspective I see sexual preference as being synonymous with orientation.

Saint Pipra of Peevington

That I generally agree with; sexual behaviour is certainly subject to the kinds of modifiers you mention, and I don't think most people who say "sexual preference" have a negative agenda or mean anything different than "sexual orientation". I do still think 'orientation' is a better term, as 'preference' really can sound like a trivial sort of thing (even if it isn't necessarily), and homophobes have a tendency to emphasise it in that way, so why give them ammo? My milkshake preference is strawberry, but I could be quite happy with a vanilla one. To me, 'orientation' makes it clearer that the matter is innate and non-trivial. I certainly wouldn't claim to have a milkshake orientation.

(I do rather want a milkshake now, though.)

Lucifer Baphomet

I hear you, Pipra, but then again, why does orientation suggest innateness. I can change my geographical orientation from a north south axis to an east west one, simply by choosing to rotate my chair 90 degrees, so if looked on in that way, orientation can in fact be far more suggestive of choice than preference.

I see this as a problem innate in the whole game of finding new terms as old ones end up being seen as pejorative. The terms I was taught for example as the correct medical terms for people with learning disabilities has changed, back when I was training, Mental Handicap was an acceptable medical term, and i believe that in the USA, Learning Disability is being supplanted by Developmental Disability now.

Also, while I was training, the principle of "Normalisation" was extremely popular in psychology and social work, then the term was changed to social role valorisation, as it was viewed as less politically charged.

In a way, I see this constant changing of language for political purposes as negative, as it lends more power to those who attempt to appropriate acceptable terms and subvert their use into a negative one.

Also I feel that at times it can become divisive among people who actually share common views and goals, where because of say age differences, or cultural differences, which are reflected in language, one group pr individual will erroneously see the other as possibly being against the other.

As an example here, think of the word oriental, which was never a pejorative term in the UK, but was in the USA.

Am I making sense?

Ingrid

I just did this last week. Why do we even do baby showers anymore? I don't know anyone who actually enjoys them. Everyone just feels pissed off that their weekend afternoon is shot.

Ishina

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bronxelf

Because people haven't learned that " no." is a complete sentence.

In short: social pressure and obligation is very difficult to resist, and often the first person to do so takes so much heat for it, that it scares anyone else off from doing likewise. No one wants to be "that person", the meanie who said no to the baby shower.

But after you do it a few times you get used to it, and honestly people soon learn not to ask you for stuff like that. Or at best "Hey I know this isnt your thing, and that's fine, but if you want to you're welcome to come to this."

I've no problem with knitting baby hats for newborns. In fact I do it often. I just don't do baby showers- I'll send the gift along privately. It's not the gift I mind. It's the party with the attendant stupid games, being stuck with people I have nothing in common with at all, and social expectations that I avoid. But making/giving a gift? No sweat. That's not any problem at all.

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Casey Pelous

Heck, I'm still trying to figure out who invited Jopsy to a baby shower!

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Saint Pipra of Peevington

It's a point -- I'm trying to sort out some of why I find it more innate and permanent, and unfortunately not all of it is falling into words right now. It may not be entirely supportable. But aside from the bits I can't currently put in words, I also think it's less that orientation is necessarily a permanent concept, and more that the word isn't used in everyday speech to refer to decidedly choice-based things.

It feels similar to the way that the colloquial use of 'theory' allows creationists to dismiss evolution as "merely a theory" despite the fact that there's nothing 'mere' about the scientific meaning of 'theory'. 'Preference' in daily use is more likely to show up in contexts where you may or may not get what you want, and it isn't expected to be a particularly big deal -- you might be asked for your meal preference, or a seating preference, generally with the idea that an attempt will be made to accommodate you, but no promises. If you have food allergies, people will generally no longer consider your request for meal A over meal B a preference, even though it could be argued that not only is it still your preference, you're also expressing a preference for not getting hives or going into anaphylactic shock.

Even if it were taken as a given that (geographical) orientation can easily be adjusted, it still isn't a term frequently used enough that flexibility is part of the connotation.

Yes, you're making sense to me. I don't believe that changing terms is necessarily negative, because in some cases it's not only a matter of the old term having picked up pejorative connotations, but also of clarification or a growing understanding of whatever's being renamed.

That said, I do agree that misunderstandings about what lies behind a person's choice to use one term rather than another can cause division where none really existed. Of course, just about anything can be pejorative if you put enough negative emotion behind it, and as long as a group or concept is disliked and derided, there's a pretty good chance even the most neutral term will pick up some negative connotations. I don't think that should always result in a change of terminology, but sometimes it may be justified.

Given that it's really only polite to refer to individuals in the terms they prefer, that you'll probably never find a group in which every single member agrees, and that there do tend to be an awful lot of terms to choose from, I tend to think the best course is to give people the benefit of the doubt (until and unless they show they don't deserve it), and to ask questions. Cuts down on the misunderstandings a fair bit!*

All the other arguments aside, if people from the group(s) about which a term is used tend to tell me they would rather term A than term B, I'll use term A. 'Sexual orientation' is generally brought up about LGBT folks (since straight is still usually considered the default, not requiring a marker), and since other LGBT people tell me they're happier with 'orientation' than 'preference', that's what I'll use.

*As long as I, you know, do that. Can't claim I never slip up.

Sredni Eel

They're designed to make you feel bad that you aren't remotely interested in buying the entire stock of Babies R Us for whoever is about to spawn.

"Oh yes, join us with fun diaper games while we make sure you feel guilty for not having kids of your own."

I think it's great when people want to have babies. But don't invite me to some party that is just a thinly disguised guilt trip event where you're literally forced to buy expensive crap at Gymboree for someone who is too snooty to get cheaper baby crap at Walmart.

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Lo Jacobs

And of course there's no alcohol thanks to the pregnant lady.

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SORRY FOR PARTY ROCKING

Aliselia Aeon

I despise baby showers and always make sure I have important previous commitments and can't attend, but will send a gift.

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Casey Pelous

That's a little complicated if one is the guest of honor. Drat the luck.

Sredni Eel

Can't you fake going into labor or something?

Actually, I think I'm going to do that next time I'm asked to go somewhere I don't want to go.

Casey Pelous

WHERE WERE YOU WITH THESE IDEAS WHEN I NEEDED YOU???

Jopsy Pendragon

Being "oriented", originally meant "facing east". But it also has come to mean "having one's bearings, knowing where things are", regardless of which way one is pointed. There's more to it than just which way someone's facing at the moment...

But I agree. I'm not fond of the word in this context either.

If it were up to me, we'd just call it 'sexual attraction': M, F, mostly M, mostly F, both, or neither.


Yes, and I agree. Good slogans win political battles. One of the reasons you hear partisans on one side dismissively calling it "Gay Marriage" as if it would completely replace 'straight marriage', and on the other "Marriage Equality".

Casey Pelous

The thought occurs to me that the ultimate victory might be "no particular word for that" - after all, we don't need special terms to single out those who drink 1% milk instead of 2%.

I suppose practicality would dictate some sort of way to identify one's orientation to a prospective partner.

Jopsy Pendragon

No kidding. It'd be nice to live in a world where the sex one is attracted to is as unremarkable as whether people are attracted to taller/shorter, fatter/thinner, darker/lighter, blonder/brunetter, older/younger, butch/fem, hairy/smooth, aggressive/passive, dominant/submissive, stern/compassionate, chatty/silent, freckled/clear, ....

Cristiano

I understand the undertones of "sexual preference" as opposed to "sexual orientation", but it does seem a bit of semantics. I had no more of a choice in not liking tomatoes or having raspberries as my favorite food than I did in feeling a physical and emotional attraction to women (generally dark hair, dark eyes and skin but it varies). Within those attractions, there are things I prefer over another. None were a choice any more than being gay is, so I am not sure how "preference" vs "orientation" is dramatically different.

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