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Tracer Graves · 09-16-2012, 10:06 PM

there are cults and there are cults.

There is propaganda and then there is propaganda.

Michael Moore told a biased expose style documentary and was overtly political. It did have some propaganda elements, but the difference here is that these movies appeal to nationalism and religious identity movements and require a religious standard of evidence. They paint end times style scenarios to known Armageddon believers, casting the current President of the United States of America as the Evil Enemy. If the Civil War had been in a time with movie theaters and marketing teams, we'd have some pretty fucked up movies on our hands.

On a side note that I find to be incredibly concerning is this. This is like a window into the past when you realize that the Tea Party is just the continuation of the Confederacy. "The South will rise again, same policy positions, but better PR"

States Rights

Unequal Marriage rights

Disenfranchisement of a minority to their full rights as a citizens

Strong appeal to the Christian Identity movement

Full of secessionists and insurrectionists

Voter Suppression

I'd say if it looks like a duck and walks like a duck... Regardless of whether you throw the word propaganda out there, those movies represent a disturbing reality that threatens our democracy. <edit>Yes, I know it's actually a Democratic Republic.</edit>

Eris · 09-16-2012, 10:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Teeny Leviathan

Its like this decade's version of this classic. You know its hip an' happenin', since that really cool Jack Webb is in it.

Red Nightmare - 1962 - Communist takeover of America - YouTube

Uppity colored Kenyan secret "Muslins" are the new commies.

The promised land!

I am especially eager to see churches turned into people's museums.

**Void** · 09-16-2012, 10:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eris

[...]
I am especially eager to see churches turned into people's museums.

as I count it, too many* already ARE living history museums dedicated to chronicling failed ideologies...

*not all mind you

Wrong Weatherwax · 09-16-2012, 10:40 PM

Why am I not surprised to find both of these movies playing in my local theaters?

Lloyd Newman · 09-16-2012, 10:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Anya Ristow

Also from the wiki:

"Propaganda often presents facts selectively (thus possibly lying by omission)"

Thus, a piece can be propaganda even if everything in it is factual.

"The best way to lie convincingly is to tell the truth unconvincingly."
Robert A. Heinlein

"A truth that's told with bad intent,
Beats all the lies you can invent."
William Blake

**Aliselia Aeon** · 09-16-2012, 11:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Artemis Fate

I especially liked the actor in the interview saying that Christians should be allowed to pray in churches, as if anyone was trying to stop them from doing that.

I have certainly never heard of anyone trying to stop Christians from praying in their own Churches. Hell, I don't even care if they pray out on street corners, as long as they leave me alone. I do have a problem with it in public schools, however.

**Aliselia Aeon** · 09-16-2012, 11:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wrong Weatherwax

Why am I not surprised to find both of these movies playing in my local theaters?

Yeah, I saw that they are playing on the west side of my state-which historically has tended yo be conservative and staunchly Christian. If there was a theater in the town I am in, I'm sure they would be playing here too. This is BIG Michigan Militia country.

Jopsy Pendragon · 09-16-2012, 11:31 PM

Not playing at a major theater near you:

Quote:

"Blacklisted" : The heart-wrenching tale of Charlie, a poverty level climatologist who's just trying to head off certain disaster so his child has a chance at happiness. When his mother, dying of cancer, loses the fight with the insurance carrier that dropped her, and his father's farm is foreclosed due to litigation from Monsanto and lost mortgage paperwork at his 'bank'. When Charlie's only brother's union job is outsourced to China. Our hero Charlie needs to decide whether or not he'll take bribes from big oil - to falsify his data into showing that climate change isn't a serious issue or let his family, too proud for financial assistance, starve to death.

**Eboni Khan** · 09-17-2012, 12:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Artemis Fate

Illinois pretty much is a red state. Chicago is more or less the only liberal and democratic part of it, and that's where most of the people are in Illinois, so it's called a blue state. Go out of Chicago and some part of Illinois are downright hicksville.

In fact, one of the pipe dreams Illinois republicans keep bringing up is splitting Chicago off into it's own state so the rest of Illinois can be a red state.

I grew up down state, I know south of I-80 seems like Kentucky, but still most people are old school democrats, not raging backwoods hicks.

But thanks for the lesson on Illinois.

detrius · 09-17-2012, 12:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Anya Ristow

Anything by Michael Moore might be considered ~~propaganda~~ art by anyone who ~~doesn't~~ like[s] what he has to say.

Any piece of fiction that depicts homosexuality in a positive way might be considered ~~propaganda~~ art by anyone who ~~is homophobic~~ supports gay rights.

A film showing violence without consequence might be considered ~~propaganda~~ art.

A novel depicting hackers as heroes and rockstars could be considered ~~propaganda~~ art. A documentary depicting hackers as thugs and criminals could be considered ~~propaganda~~ art.

A TV series about a Christian pastor could be considered ~~propaganda~~ art.

A documentary about a successful crime enforcement action could be considered ~~propaganda~~ art. A documentary about an unsuccessful crime enforcement action could be considered ~~propaganda~~ art.

A film about the plight of native Americans could be considered ~~propaganda~~ art.

A TV series depicting realistic police routine might be considered ~~propaganda~~ art.

A news program about open source software could be considered ~~propaganda~~ art.

A movie about a trial with a controversial outcome might be considered ~~propaganda~~ art.

A film showing an Atheist to be a vindictive asshat could be considered ~~propaganda~~ art. A film showing an Atheist outsmarting stupid Christians could be considered ~~propaganda~~ art.

etc.

Now if a theater chain or a movie studio is pushing an agenda that's more interesting.

Yes, but ~is~ it art?

detrius · 09-17-2012, 01:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Anya Ristow

Quote:

Originally Posted by Autumn Palen

I wouldn't go so far to say that makes his entire work propaganda though, as one can fact-check his pieces

Also from the wiki:

"Propaganda often presents facts selectively (thus possibly lying by omission)"

Thus, a piece can be propaganda even if everything in it is factual.

Kinda like what you did when you left out half of the sentence you quoted.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Autumn Palen

I wouldn't go so far to say that makes his entire work propaganda though, as one can fact-check his pieces and then factor that in to deciding if his arguments still hold up (or, conversely, in what ways does his sometimes manipulation of chronologies undermine his argument).

Jopsy Pendragon · 09-17-2012, 02:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by detrius

Yes, but ~is~ it art?

It's lacks a certain 'je ne sais quoi'. I give it an F.

Oh wait... the F... that completes it. F + art. Yep. It is that.

Anya Ristow · 09-17-2012, 05:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by detrius

Kinda like what you did when you left out half of the sentence you quoted.

Yeah, and eighthdwarf disagreed and groaned. Sheesh. I wasn't disagreeing. I was illustrating. Sorry.

**Void** · 09-17-2012, 07:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by detrius

Yes, but ~is~ it art?

all art is propaganda, and vice versa...

... and it's all subject to Sturgeons Law

Ishina · 09-17-2012, 07:32 AM

Now that propaganda has been defined to mean literally any form of expression with thought or meaning behind it, we need a new word for when referring to that stuff formerly known as propaganda.

Asher Bertrand · 09-17-2012, 09:14 AM

Propaganda: Someone putting out a message you don't liike.

detrius · 09-17-2012, 09:30 AM

Next up: white is the same colour as red because of pink!

Nephilaine Protagonist · 09-17-2012, 09:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Artemis Fate

Incidentally, I love the main character of this one. He's like the epitome of trying too hard.

A white middle-aged rural biker-dad who rides a Harley with an oversized American flag on the back (that somehow hasn't ripped or frayed), or drives a classic good ol' boy truck and works in a down home American small town job of a drug store. They even have the bad guy being a cigar chomping black guy.

I actually want to see this, it looks hilarious.

SAME. If you asked 200 people in my town to write a screenplay, I bet you would get back 150 iterations of this same film. I imagine it will be quite popular around here. I am bracing myself to be asked "HAVE YOU SEEN THIS MOVIE" over and over for at least the next two months. At minimum.

Nephilaine Protagonist · 09-17-2012, 09:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jopsy Pendragon

I admit, I'm half tempted myself. But wouldn't want to give money to the bigoted fearmonger creeps responsible for it.

I'll see it, but im not going to PAY for this one, are you kidding me?

**Amber Guity** · 09-17-2012, 10:28 AM

Of course, one of my FB friends I grew up with has posted a comment about how great this movie. This movie, to quote her is a "Touching, thought-provoking movie about protecting/exercising our freedom in a society that does not respect our faith or values."

Gag me with a spoon.

I am working on my reply.

Innula Zenovka · 09-17-2012, 10:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Asher Bertrand

Propaganda: Someone putting out a message you don't liike.

Chip Midnight · 09-17-2012, 10:47 AM

Here's a better trailer for Last Ounce of Courage. It's a war on Christmas movie! ahahahahahaha!

Last Ounce of Courage - YouTube

Innula Zenovka · 09-17-2012, 10:57 AM

The reviews don't seem very encouraging: Last Ounce of Courage - Rotten Tomatoes

Morgoth · 09-17-2012, 11:01 AM

Oh gods. This is horrible. And absolute propaganda.

I hate to think of the kind of influence these films will have on people's already terrible views, even if it's 'preaching to the choir', these kind of things whip things up with a further fervour. Increasing the stupidity and bigotry all round.

Urgh, someone totally needs to make some more left wing films like this. Well ideally not 'like this', but with actual facts and actual evidence and all those kinds of useful things.

detrius · 09-17-2012, 11:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chip Midnight

Here's a better trailer for Last Ounce of Courage. It's a war on Christmas movie! ahahahahahaha!

Last Ounce of Courage - YouTube

It was planned to be released in 2009?

Also:

09-16-2012, 10:06 PM	#26 (permalink)
Tracer Graves Senior Member passing out the lube Join Date: Jun 2008 Posts: 6,381 My Mood:	there are cults and there are cults. There is propaganda and then there is propaganda. Michael Moore told a biased expose style documentary and was overtly political. It did have some propaganda elements, but the difference here is that these movies appeal to nationalism and religious identity movements and require a religious standard of evidence. They paint end times style scenarios to known Armageddon believers, casting the current President of the United States of America as the Evil Enemy. If the Civil War had been in a time with movie theaters and marketing teams, we'd have some pretty fucked up movies on our hands. On a side note that I find to be incredibly concerning is this. This is like a window into the past when you realize that the Tea Party is just the continuation of the Confederacy. "The South will rise again, same policy positions, but better PR" States Rights Unequal Marriage rights Disenfranchisement of a minority to their full rights as a citizens Strong appeal to the Christian Identity movement Full of secessionists and insurrectionists Voter Suppression I'd say if it looks like a duck and walks like a duck... Regardless of whether you throw the word propaganda out there, those movies represent a disturbing reality that threatens our democracy. <edit>Yes, I know it's actually a Democratic Republic.</edit> __________________ A nice little place with some great music http://maps.secondlife.com/secondlife/DeJu/127/62/22 flickr group: http://www.flickr.com/groups/slspeakeasy/ Last edited by Tracer Graves; 09-16-2012 at 10:14 PM.

09-16-2012, 10:40 PM	#29 (permalink)
Wrong Weatherwax Senior Member Getting Back There Join Date: Jan 2012 Posts: 2,247 My Mood: Client: Exodus	Why am I not surprised to find both of these movies playing in my local theaters? __________________ An education was a bit like a communicable sexual disease. It made you unsuitable for a lot of jobs and then you had the urge to pass it on. -Terry Pratchett

09-17-2012, 07:32 AM	#40 (permalink)
Ishina Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 3,802	Now that propaganda has been defined to mean literally any form of expression with thought or meaning behind it, we need a new word for when referring to that stuff formerly known as propaganda. __________________

09-17-2012, 09:14 AM	#41 (permalink)
Asher Bertrand Dead Guy Expert Witless Join Date: Sep 2007 Posts: 9,900 My Mood: Blog Entries: 2	Propaganda: Someone putting out a message you don't liike. __________________ Ring the bells that still can ring Forget your perfect offering There is a crack in everything That's how the light gets in.

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09-17-2012, 09:30 AM	#42 (permalink)
detrius Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Germany Posts: 6,980 My Mood:	Next up: white is the same colour as red because of pink!

09-17-2012, 10:28 AM	#45 (permalink)
Amber Guity state of non-being *SLU Supporter* The maple kind? Join Date: Dec 2009 Posts: 1,376 My Mood: Client: Firestorm	Of course, one of my FB friends I grew up with has posted a comment about how great this movie. This movie, to quote her is a "Touching, thought-provoking movie about protecting/exercising our freedom in a society that does not respect our faith or values." Gag me with a spoon. I am working on my reply.

09-17-2012, 10:57 AM	#48 (permalink)
Innula Zenovka Nasty Brit Wants things Join Date: May 2009 Posts: 6,968 SL Join Date: 17 June 2007 Business: Something Spunky	The reviews don't seem very encouraging: Last Ounce of Courage - Rotten Tomatoes

09-17-2012, 11:01 AM	#49 (permalink)
Morgoth Senior Member Splendidly Sesquipedalian Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: Scotland Posts: 1,234	Oh gods. This is horrible. And absolute propaganda. I hate to think of the kind of influence these films will have on people's already terrible views, even if it's 'preaching to the choir', these kind of things whip things up with a further fervour. Increasing the stupidity and bigotry all round. Urgh, someone totally needs to make some more left wing films like this. Well ideally not 'like this', but with actual facts and actual evidence and all those kinds of useful things.

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