pancake

Warning, this article has some pretty loaded claims, but it's an interesting read.

Amnesty International: Revelations That Iran Is Arming Syria Is One More Example of Why the World Needs an Arms Trade Treaty

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Richie Waves

There was non to abdicate. From the founding, which was basically the largest genocide in history to the near endless wars, the only moral leadership is that which is self appointed.

Empires are empires.

Cindy Claveau

I thought we'd lost all pretense of "moral leadership" in March of 2003, at the start of Operation Iraqi Freedom. This merely confirms my view.

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"As long as there’s one person on earth who remembers you, it isn’t over." - Oscar Hammerstein

bronxelf

Yes.

(clarification; we never had moral leadership to begin with, but about 50% of the country is still utterly convinced that we did, always have, and do. For those of us who find the entire notion preposterous, you cant abdicate something you never had. However to the other half who seriously believe we do (GUESS WHICH HALF, GANG?), I still think the answer is yes.)

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Wrong Weatherwax

I wouldn't go quite that far, to empire I mean but I will agree with you on the non-abdication. America is much like any other nation in the use of power and statecraft to accomplish its means, its goals. We've (the US) exercised power poorly in some cases, ethically in others, making us pretty similar to other world or regional powers. The "morality" issue has always been something of a misnomer once you cross national boundaries.

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Kanomi Pikajuna

Anyone who sends teenagers out to kill and die so they can get rich doesn't give a fuck about morality. They are psychopaths. Criminal families hiding behind democracy has been the rule of Empire for centuries.

They own the media, both parties. Nothing they say matters, it is all lies. You will never be free if you don't see the lies you are fed.

Roxanne Blue

Nation states look out for their own national interests. The United States has often sought to cloak its national interests in a "moral framework", but that's always been window dressing. Whenever we we've unable to find a "moral" for our policies, we simply justify it as "realpolitik".

Where was the "moral leadership" in supporting dictatorships such as Mubarek's Egypt, or Saddam's Iraq (versus Iran), or the Shah during his blood-soaked reign?

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Cindy Claveau

At least we have you around to point it out!

Lucifer Baphomet

The only countries that have moral high ground are fictional.

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Elysium Hynes

i was actually gonna write something but Luc nailed it in a better way the i could.

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Cindy Claveau

Malta and Iceland have pretty remarkable human rights scores (as of 2007).

Country Ranking Table 2007

pancake

I think some countries, or government's rather, can have a higher moral high ground than others. It doesn't make them perfect of course.

The article surprised me in that it claimed the United States had this, and then was disapointed in them for not acting on it.

I get the premise in general of moral leadership, I don't want to see a world where countries or agencies don't step in when genocides are happening for example, but it certainly is a slippery slope if one nation is considered the police of this morality.

Lucifer Baphomet

In Malta not only is Abortion Illegal, but any act that causes a miscarriage carries a sentence of 18 months to 3 years.

Iceland will take all your money and try to weasel out of paying you back

Also, they have that whole history of raiding coastal countries, and raping their women

Cindy Claveau

Well, shit, then find another country on that list I posted. I need to move.

Menchor Barbosa

I wish they would break this out by US states I bet the picture would be very interesting.

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Baroness Menchor, the Deadly, of the Great Army of the Invincible Infidel, Whose Great Swarms of Evil and Horror Laid Waste to the Souls of a Million True Believers and Left Their Souls Rotting in the Summer Sun for the Buzzards to to Ravish as Their Souls Sunk to the Depths of Torment and Hopelessness, Abandoned by Their Gods.

Youth and strength can almost always be overcome by old age and treachery

Cindy Claveau

Nah, Lucifer will just find something else to complain about.

But what's he know? He has it good in Scotland, who haven't invaded anyone on their own since the 14th century. I would think they're a bit rusty by now.

Void

I know the US has claimed to have it, but realistically, never has.

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- These eyes can do more than see

Isablan Neva

Invading someone else is costly and takes time. Much easier to beat, rob, and kill off your neighboring countrymen.

Lazy sots.

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Innula Zenovka

I don't think anyone outside the US has ever thought of the USA as exercising any sort of moral leadership.

Quite simply, to anyone outside the USA, and I dare say to a good number of Americans, too, the idea that someone might say, with a straight face, "The US government wants us to do such-and-such, so it must be right thing to do" is risible.

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Cindy Claveau

We want their names

Jopsy Pendragon

People are for moral leadership, when it imposes limits on OTHER people.

The USA is no exception.

Jahar Aabye

Realistically, I dount we'd want that either. Idealists tend to be inconvenient. Much better to have them say "the US will offer us foreign aid and infrastructure development if we stop shooting members of the minority tribe for sport." Hell, part of how Jimmy Carter helped broker the Camp David accords was to offer the Egyptians almost the same amount of foreign aid as was given to the Israelis. Bribes for peace might seem crass, but if it works, why not.

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He pulled a Captain Ahab and Jaharpwn'ed her. - Trout

Richie Waves

It works? really? Well I guess that depends on your definition. There's a very good correlation between american aid and state violence and oppression. From south America, to Israels carry on in the occupied territory's to the various puppet states in the middle east and beyond.

I find it remarkable that, in a state like Iran, that receives none, the general population seems to actually like the American people. where's go to Saudi Arabia, whos repressive regime is only holding power by way of military aid and US backing, the general consensus is that Americans are the devils, arent exactly the bell of the ball in any of the states backed by US money.

Even in Israel there's a huge left wing movement who views US money as one of the largest roadblocks to peace and social justice in their country. They held the largest demonstration in Israeli history recently, complaining about high prices for goods and shitty wages. There's a resentment that, while everything Bibi and Likud says the US media plays like marionette for, yet their demonstration barely made the international news.

You could make a decent enough case that US aid backing in the long term, is not good for peace at all.

Aliselia Aeon

Ask any Native American what they think of the US morality.

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Void

sad, but ultimately true.