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Richie Waves · 09-14-2012, 03:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jahar Aabye

I thought you didn't like the Syrian rebels? They're doing exactly what you say you want to see happen, overthrowing a conservative regime composed of a tiny minority group (the Aluwites).

See, this is why the politics of the Arab world are really not a good place for idealists.

The syrian rebels are a bunch of thugs, they interviewed one who remarked that Palestine was far more beautiful than he'd imagined... yes, he didn't even know what country he was in.

Jahar Aabye · 09-14-2012, 03:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Richie Waves

You elected to fight that war, you do not get to boohoo about it after. Your army is one you volunteer for. how may i ask do you get "pulled" from college to fight in a volunteer army?

I'm drawing a distinction between what would be a conventional war that Iran would be and a quick occupation and policing mission like Iraq and Afghanistan were. People should know the difference in blood and riches that it would entail.

Yeah, one of my friends enlisted for a set period of time. When his enlistment was up,nit was involuntarily extended due to the need for troops, basically a backdoor draftm He was sent back over for another tour, where he got a bit too close to the wrong end of a Chinese-made rocket. Go fuck yourself.

Richie Waves · 09-14-2012, 03:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cindy Claveau

One thing I've never heard from you is that, as imperfect as the US can be, and often is, the nature of our system does allow for self-correction. Even Reagan had his Iran-Contra revelation and the only people still revering him are the hard right twits like Coulter and Hannity.

Coulter and Hannity do not represent mainstream American views.

How many people went to jail over that? I think it was one, a guy who stole an olly north street sign in protest.

**Cindy Claveau** · 09-14-2012, 03:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Richie Waves

How many people went to jail over that? I think it was one, a guy who stole an olly north street sign in protest.

Throwing an ex-President in jail is seen as "bad precedent" or else Nixon would still be in jail now, as a corpse.

The impact on his legacy, however, was far wider and more damaging than a prison term. When Bush took the same tack and decided Reagan was right and you really could invade anybody you wanted when you're the baddest mofo on the block, it ended up being a total disaster militarily, politically and morally. It also helped get Obama elected.

The worm turns.

pancake · 09-14-2012, 03:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Richie Waves

The syrian rebels are a bunch of thugs, they interviewed one who remarked that Palestine was far more beautiful than he'd imagined... yes, he didn't even know what country he was in.

Um, I think you forgot to mention an important descriptor there.
A bunch of thugs supported by Iran.

Richie Waves · 09-14-2012, 03:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jahar Aabye

Yeah, one of my friends enlisted for a set period of time. When his enlistment was up,nit was involuntarily extended due to the need for troops, basically a backdoor draftm He was sent back over for another tour, where he got a bit too close to the wrong end of a Chinese-made rocket. Go fuck yourself.

How many American children got crushed in their homes by iraqi bombing runs? oh your friend nearly got hit, I have some sympathy for the soldiers, but essentially, they joined the army of a country that is basically been running non stop wars since the 50's.

Richie Waves · 09-14-2012, 03:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pancake

Um, I think you forgot to mention an important descriptor there.
A bunch of thugs supported by Iran.

Iran is supporting Assad's overthrow? surely you jest.

pancake · 09-14-2012, 03:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Richie Waves

Iran is supporting Assad's overthrow? surely you jest.

Sorry - I misunderstood who you were talking about.
Too many thugs in the world!

Richie Waves · 09-14-2012, 03:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cindy Claveau

Throwing an ex-President in jail is seen as "bad precedent" or else Nixon would still be in jail now, as a corpse.

The impact on his legacy, however, was far wider and more damaging than a prison term. When Bush took the same tack and decided Reagan was right and you really could invade anybody you wanted when you're the baddest mofo on the block, it ended up being a total disaster militarily, politically and morally. It also helped get Obama elected.

The worm turns.

There were 11 criminal convictions as a result and not a single jail sentence.

Chandra Masala · 09-14-2012, 03:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Richie Waves

They do, but Iraq is not in the real sense a country, it was cobbled together, Pakistan was too. Afghanistan was mentioned because it is the land of war lords.

Iran is far more homogeneous as it has been the country it is thousands of years.

Richie, you really don't get to decide who's country is real or not. It's the same line people use to claim that Palestinians aren't a real people.

If they identify by a nationality, the probability is that the country is real enough to them.

Richie Waves · 09-14-2012, 03:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chandra Masala

Richie, you really don't get to decide who's country is real or not. It's the same line people use to claim that Palestinians aren't a real people.

If they identify by a nationality, the probability is that the country is real enough to them.

I'm not here disputing their legitimacy as countries.

**Cindy Claveau** · 09-14-2012, 03:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Richie Waves

There were 11 criminal convictions as a result and not a single jail sentence.

Wow. There is just no reasoning with you, is there? Your arguments are now so far afield of the original premise that this thread is unrecognizable.

Shall we bicker over English vs Metric next?

Richie Waves · 09-14-2012, 03:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cindy Claveau

Wow. There is just no reasoning with you, is there? Your arguments are now so far afield of the original premise that this thread is unrecognizable.

Shall we bicker over English vs Metric next?

I wouldnt consider it important, but the my lai massacre was the same, I think there was a few house arrests for the slaughter of up to 500 villagers. You keep saying the US changes through administrations, but that fact of the matter is, it does not, you could barely get a credit card between the foreign policies of the Dems and Reps. They just present it differently.

This is pretty uncontroversial opinion pretty much everywhere but the US.

**Cindy Claveau** · 09-14-2012, 03:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Richie Waves

I wouldnt consider it important, but the my lai massacre was the same, I think there was a few house arrests for the slaughter of up to 500 villagers. You keep saying the US changes through administrations, but that fact of the matter is, it does not, you could barely get a credit card between the foreign policies of the Dems and Reps. They just present it differently.

This is pretty uncontroversial opinion pretty much everywhere but the US.

Jesus christ. My lai? Really? 1968, a renegade lieutenant violating the Geneva Conventions and the MCOJ? Calley WAS imprisoned but Nixon set him free to house arrest. You remember Nixon, who knew a thing or two about breaking the law?

You really must have a hard on for the US if you want to go all the way back to '68 to drag out our trash. How does it feel to totally derail your own thread? What's next - a big fat Godwin?

As for foreign policies, I don't think you've been paying attention. Obama has tried to take a different approach to it, despite politicized mischaracterizations from the Right here. He directs foreign policy but he must also work with Congress, so he can't be expected to be an overnight miracle worker.

Your "credit card" metaphor is ignorant and ill-informed. But then you don't live here and deal with it every day. Although you do claim to know what everybody else is thinking, right?

Lay off the crazy pills.

Richie Waves · 09-14-2012, 03:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cindy Claveau

Your "credit card" metaphor is ignorant and ill-informed. But then you don't live here and deal with it every day. Although you do claim to know what everybody else is thinking, right?

Lay off the crazy pills.

Objectives haven't changed. US dominance in the region is still the mission. Instead of boots on the ground it has shifted to drone attacks and a secret kill list. It has certainly reduced the amount of innocents being killed, but it has not completely stopped it. The torturing remains in Guantanamo, only last week a prisoner died in there who was never convicted nor were there plans to convict him.

It the same game with modified rules. Clinton was just the same, no big wars but yet a constant stream of bombings.

**Cindy Claveau** · 09-14-2012, 03:43 PM

I used to think you actually had something important to say, Richie.

Now I see that you're an even worse hard-line ideologue than the Rightwingers you profess to hate.

Have at it. My respect for you has come to a middle.

Richie Waves · 09-14-2012, 03:48 PM

That's the typical reaction people have when they hear something they do not like the sound of. they laugh, they ridicule, they insult.

I really do not mind any more, I won't modify my beliefs and observations because they are unpopular.

pancake · 09-14-2012, 03:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Richie Waves

That's the typical reaction people have when they hear something they do not like the sound of. they laugh, they ridicule, they insult.

I really do not mind any more, I won't modify my beliefs and observations because they are unpopular.

Here is the thing Richie.
Pretty much everyone here, including me, agrees that the United States should NOT go to war with Iran.
I think everyone also believes Israel should not go to war with Iran.

We agree with you. No one asked you to change your stance on this.

You seem to miss that because we aren't chanting the same anti Israel line you want us to or something. I don't know, but it's really confusing and frustrating.

Richie Waves · 09-14-2012, 03:55 PM

I haven't even mentioned Israel in about 8 posts. You cannot seem to let that go, Pancake, even when it is irrelevant to my previous post. it's the second time you've done it in this thread.

pancake · 09-14-2012, 03:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Richie Waves

I haven't even mentioned Israel in about 8 posts. You cannot seem to let that go, Pancake, even when it is irrelevant to my previous post. it's the second time you've done it in this thread.

You want me to let Israel go in a thread about Israel trying to get the United States to go to war with Iran?

I think you've just proven my point.
You are so dead set determined that everyone is disagreeing with you, that you find issue with what people say even when we agree with your point.

Richie Waves · 09-14-2012, 04:01 PM

Wait, what? You just scolded me because I keep bringing up bloody Israel!!!

pancake · 09-14-2012, 04:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Richie Waves

Wait, what? You just scolded me because I keep bringing up bloody Israel!!!

OK, you're trolling me now right?

I've "scolded" you for insisting that people's issues with Iran are solely to do with Israel or that we're being manipulated by Israel.

If that's the same thing to you, then I'm totally confused.

Richie Waves · 09-14-2012, 04:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pancake

OK, you're trolling me now right?

I've "scolded" you for insisting that people's issues with Iran are solely to do with Israel or that we're being manipulated by Israel.

If that's the same thing to you, then I'm totally confused.

The media push on Iran, right now, is the Israeli agenda. Bibi felt Obama was weak in the run up to the elections so he has been pushing it hard thinking Obama would have no choice but to be his yes man. He requested a meeting with Obama which Obama rejected.

There are legitimate complaints about Iran, no doubt about it, but my question is why aren't the same questions being asked about Oman, KSA, Azerbaijan, Kuwait, ect? (these all receive military aid from the united states.)

A good question which nobody in the room feels is an important enough one to answer.

Richie Waves · 09-14-2012, 04:41 PM

rather long piece regarding Israel and the presidential election

Quote:

The 2012 Presidential election in the United States was supposed to ignore foreign policy. The economic disaster of 2008 is still being felt deeply by millions of Americans. That was supposed to be the arena for incumbent President Barack Obama, and his Republican challenger, Mitt Romney.

But, as more and more on-the-fence voters realized that Romney’s proposed solution was to have the middle class, through taxes, and the poor, through loss of services, pay for massive tax cuts for his ultra-rich friends, Mitt started taking hits. The jingoism and ridiculous theatrics at the Republican convention didn’t give Romney a significant boost in the polls either, and despite some incredible bungling, Obama’s party, thanks in great measure to former President Bill Clinton, got him the push he needed at the Democratic version.

So, Mitt was feeling desperate, and he clutched at the wrong straw. He decided, in the wake of the deadly terrorist attack on the US consulate in Benghazi to attack the President. To call that a blunder would be an understatement. It showed Romney’s true colors, indifferent to US lives, clueless when it comes to the world outside our borders, but most importantly a shameless opportunist. It played very poorly among just about every American voter, irrespective of ideology. Including Obama haters.

That straw he clutched was probably the final one for Romney’s candidacy, barring a devastating event sometime in the next six weeks. And, as ironic as it is that foreign policy blunder would be the event that finally opened the gap between Romney and Obama, it is also fitting. Because the 2012 election may well mark a turning point in the politics of foreign policy in the United States.

It is routine for presidential candidates to try to “out-pro-Israel” each other. But Romney took it a step further in this campaign, and turned US policy on Israel into a partisan issue. This was a major shift, because the “special relationship” between the United States and Israel has always been rock solid, based in great measure, on the fact that it was a bipartisan stance. 2012 may mark a shift in this reality, and that leads to the possibility that US policy may start to reflect the views of most Americans, as well as a good number of US leaders whose views have been sidelined due to the myopic focus on Israeli fears, desires and priorities.

In December 2011, when Romney was still duking it out with fellow Republicans for the nomination, he described how he would act regarding policy and major statements connected to the Israel-Palestine conflict: “I’d get on the phone to my friend Bibi Netanyahu and say, ‘Would it help if I said this? What would you like me to do?’” Who needs an Israel Lobby when you have a President who flat out states he is willing to hand the reins of White House policy over to a foreign leader?

During the campaign, Romney’s good friend, Bibi all but endorsed him for the presidency, treating Romeny not as a foreign dignitary but as one would treat an honored head of state during the Republican’s visit to Israel in July. Romney responded in kind, cancelling a meeting with Labor Party leader Shelly Yachimovitch at the last minute, embarrassing the opposition. And, famously, he spoke of Israel’s economic success relative to the Palestinians as being due to “at least culture and a few other things.”

In recent days, the rhetoric from Netanyahu has also been ratcheted up. He sharply criticized Obama to the US Ambassador to Israel, Dan Shapiro, in the presence of the Republican head of the House Intelligence Committee, Mike Rogers, and he called Obama out for not setting specific red lines and time limits on Iran to stop their nuclear program or face a US assault, drawing a sharp retort from Secretary of State Hillary Clinton, and even a scolding letter from California Senator Barbara Boxer, a long-time counter in the pocket of the American-Israel Public Affairs Committee (AIPAC.)

Indeed, many actions of both Netanyahu and his henchman, Ehud Barak, have seemed to be testing the very outer limits of the US-Israel relationship, as I have detailed. Bibi seems to have gone all in on a Romney victory. Perhaps he had no choice, as his biggest financial backer, the shady casino owner, Sheldon Adelson, has also dumped millions of dollars into Romney’s campaign. And, it is certainly true that if Bibi is creating a widening rift in blind support, or at least acquiescence, in both major US parties for any and all Israeli policies, it is likely to take shape long after he is out of office.

But those seeds have some soil to grow in. A major study from the Chicago Council on Foreign Affairs, examining American attitudes on US foreign policy found that, as has always been the case, 65% of Americans think the US should be neutral with regard to Israel’s conflict with the Palestinians and other neighbors. Some of the other findings might surprise many: “Fifty-two percent think U.S. government leaders should be ready to meet and talk with leaders of Hamas, and half (50%) say they would support sending U.S. troops as part of an international peacekeeping unit to enforce a peace agreement.” That surprised me.

continues

**Cindy Claveau** · 09-14-2012, 04:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Richie Waves

That's the typical reaction people have when they hear something they do not like the sound of. they laugh, they ridicule, they insult.

I really do not mind any more, I won't modify my beliefs and observations because they are unpopular.

*pats you on the head*

If that's all you got out of my posts, I was right - there really IS no talking to you.

There's a difference between reasonable discussion (and we do have some common viewpoints here - not many but some - but you jumped from Israel to My Lai in less than a page) and ranting like a Liberal Limbaugh just to hear yourself pass wind.

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09-14-2012, 03:43 PM	#66 (permalink)
Cindy Claveau E=mc^(OMG)/wtf *SLU Supporter* Free's Sister Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Brownbackistan Posts: 27,445 My Mood: SL Join Date: May, 2005 Client: Firestorm Blog Entries: 16 Awards: 2	I used to think you actually had something important to say, Richie. Now I see that you're an even worse hard-line ideologue than the Rightwingers you profess to hate. Have at it. My respect for you has come to a middle.

09-14-2012, 03:48 PM	#67 (permalink)
Richie Waves Banned "jon" he does it!! Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Offaly, Republic of Ireland Posts: 16,827 My Mood: SL Join Date: 27/06/2005 Client: Phoenix & imprudence	That's the typical reaction people have when they hear something they do not like the sound of. they laugh, they ridicule, they insult. I really do not mind any more, I won't modify my beliefs and observations because they are unpopular.

09-14-2012, 03:55 PM	#69 (permalink)
Richie Waves Banned "jon" he does it!! Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Offaly, Republic of Ireland Posts: 16,827 My Mood: SL Join Date: 27/06/2005 Client: Phoenix & imprudence	I haven't even mentioned Israel in about 8 posts. You cannot seem to let that go, Pancake, even when it is irrelevant to my previous post. it's the second time you've done it in this thread.

09-14-2012, 04:01 PM	#71 (permalink)
Richie Waves Banned "jon" he does it!! Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Offaly, Republic of Ireland Posts: 16,827 My Mood: SL Join Date: 27/06/2005 Client: Phoenix & imprudence	Wait, what? You just scolded me because I keep bringing up bloody Israel!!!

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