pancake

This is probably the most awkward thread I've ever started, but as this is such a worldly and diverse crowd I thought it was the right group to ask.

I may be in the wrong subforum, if so, please move it.

I'm working on a project for the Stand 4 Love campaign with a friend of mine that I've always thought of as a Lesbian. Tonight when I told her we had to fill out our Orientation for the project she told me she prefers GenderQueer.

I was a bit taken aback. Calm down, hear me out. I'm not judging anyone! It's just that I was raised thinking the term Queer was rude, an insult. I can't imagine myself saying it anymore than I would use the N word or Fa... I can't even type it!

We had a long talk about why she prefers the term, and I'm honored she shared with me, but I'm still a bit reluctant to use it myself when referring to someone else. Though she embraces it, I don't know the general feelings on the word. I've never heard anyone use it until tonight.

Oh my god this is so uncomfortable! Maybe I'm some backwater boring soccer mom, but I'm blushing!

Can some of you please help me understand which terms are offensive and which are ok if said by those within a certain community but would be rude if said by others?

I apologize if I offended anyone. Truly. I want to use appropriate terminology and language, politically correct I suppose, but I realize I don't know how.

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Wrong Weatherwax

One thing, regarding the "Queer" terminology is that like many groups who are subjected to bigoted names and slander, the put upon group will "take" a term and own it to help reduce the impact of the insult. And no, don't feel uncomfortable, at least you are asking rather than assuming that the language use is "ok."

I've got a good number of friends who refer to themselves as Queer, Gender Queer, Lesbian, Gay, Homosexual, Big Flame (Mike, great guy, silly as hell), and then some friends simply choose not to use labels other than "Cheryl" or "James." I think like any situation its best to identify the person how they want to be identified. If my sexuality comes up, I'm bi (I could say bisexual I guess but I'm grammatically lazy for myself).

Faggot, Dyke, Tranny, Shemale, are all probably good examples of words you need to be careful around. Someone might refer to themselves by those terms but its probably in your best interest to stick to something that isn't couched in negative connotations.

Then there is the whole cisgender, cissexual, transgendered, etc. etc. Gender and sexual identity is a touchy subject, if in doubt (and you REALLY need to know for some reason), ask politely.

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An education was a bit like a communicable sexual disease. It made you unsuitable for a lot of jobs and then you had the urge to pass it on. -Terry Pratchett

Joshua Nightshade

Yeah, like Wrong said it's an individual thing. Personally speaking I would never refer to myself in such a way — although in my experience most people who refer to themselves as queer mean more than "I'm gay or a lesbian," there's generally an element of androgyny/trans-ism as well. I have a friend who refers to himself as queer, and he's pretty effeminate and often cross-dressing so it's a designation that to him goes beyond just being attracted to other guys.

I've known gay men who refer to themselves as faggots or fags in a vaguely endearing way and the context is the same "taking the phrase back" that Wrong mentioned. Personally speaking it's not one I'm usually comfortable with on my own, but it's a personal thing.

I think you did great by asking the question and honestly I can't understate how much I appreciate the attempt. There's no harm in that and chances are you're not going to offend anybody by genuinely wanting to know what you can say to not cause offence. Some words are "safer" than others; I wouldn't say something like "shemale" even with explicit permission personally, nor would I ever use it in mixed company even if that friend insisted they preferred the term.

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Carn Windlow

I think it is an excellent question. I have been trying to figure out PC terms for a lot of things recently and would like to know the answer myself. Seems like regardless of what may be considered PC atm, someone is going to take offense.

Joshua Nightshade

I'd like you to contrast this with what pancake asked, because this is really the night and day difference between the two and a textbook case of what I said about "genuinely wanting to know."

pancake asked in a manner that was wholly "I don't want to step on anyone's toes because I might accidentally be ignorant about something, can you please educate me?"

Your question, while on the one hand seemingly asking the same thing, places all the blame on the person "offended" and not your unfamiliarity with the appropriate terminology. You're not asking because you want to make sure you don't hurt someone's feelings by accident, you're brandishing elements of "you're looking for something to be mad about" and immediately putting any offence on the person you're speaking to just being "over-sensitive."

99% of the time somebody dismisses something as political correctness the subtext is "my right to be offensive trumps your right to take offence."

Carn Windlow

Not my intention to place the blame on anyone. I would like to feel free to speak/comment here in the forums as well but know my own weakness. I am indeed an uneducated lout but I try and not offend people without cause. I don't see my post as meaning what you assume it does. But it points out what I am talking about.

Joshua Nightshade

And your response points to what I'm talking about.

Carn Windlow

So if you don't mind educate me just a little. I am open to suggestions.

pancake

Thank you for the responses so far, it's been quite an enlightening evening for me. I may have learned more in one night than I have in 30 years.

I'm still not sure that I'm comfortable using the word queer unles someone should specifically request it, but I think I'm starting to understand a little more about the bigger picture of gender and sexuality than I did before.

I still need to work on pronouns it would seem, but one thing at a time.

Oh, and Joshua, the lower case in my name isn't generally a big deal, but I did notice you used it so thank you.

Joshua Nightshade

Well, probably the first thing I'd suggest is that if someone tells you that your word choice has offended them, take a second and breathe so you have time to move beyond the natural impulse to be defensive about it and then take their word for it. Instead of dismissing their offence as "PC" or "just going to be offended anyway," give them the benefit of the doubt that it was you and not them that said something inappropriate.

Case in point, I have no idea who you are but in one reply here you posted a sentence that simply reeked of privilege to me. When I said as much you dismissed it as proving your point that people are looking for something to be offended about.

Joshua Nightshade

I hate it when people abbreviate me to Josh, so I try and pay attention to names.

Carn Windlow

You know, never mind. I have read several web pages on being PC over the last week or so. And I am still frustrated by not having the right terminology for general conversation. So tell ya what. I'll go back to lurking and enjoying the conversations and you keep your misconceptions.

Joshua Nightshade

And thus we've come full circle. I'm not sure what you're frustrated about, but it's probably not "people being PC." Let me give you a word of advice, it's not someone else's responsibility to provide an education for you. If they chose to do so that's one thing, but they're under no obligation for it. They can just as easily chew you out for being offensive instead of taking the time to patiently explain where you said something wrong. If you reply to that effort by taking your toys home and pretending you're the victim, you don't have anybody else to blame for your continuing struggle but yourself.

Joshua Nightshade

I would also like to say that, as a gay man, this is exactly the contrast between asking something because you want to make sure you don't accidentally upset somebody and asking something in a way that puts the person you're questioning in a defensive, submissive position before the conversation even begins. You may as well start the question out as, "Yo, bro, I don't want you to get all bitchy and PC but why can you call people fags and I can't?!?!"

Twisted Pharaoh

PC term for bisexual: going with sail and steam.

Seriously you don't need to use special terms, homosexual and bisexual are just fine.

Joshua Nightshade

I thought the PC term for bisexual was "open season."

pancake

That's what I always thought too. One was either attracted to the opposite gender, their own gender, or both.

However, I'm learning that there is an additional complication if a person does not identify as a gender, who feels non-binary (another new term I learned today so I could be using it wrong) so the traditional sexual orientations don't really fit comfortably for some of them.

(eta I'm confused, and way out of my league here, but I'm genuinely trying)

Carn Windlow

Ok..let me try this again. I try hard NOT to offend people. I get frustrated when I put forth an effort to educate myself (Using PC terminology is a GOOD thing ..right?) and still offend people. I am actually open to using whatever makes people happy. But knowing what that may be is apparently beyond me. As far as people being offended I guess I was thinking more of all the threads I have read that have been sidetracked by someone taking offense . It did not belong here and I apologize for that. Lol...and I am no ones victim, but tend to be the quiet sort anyway. All I meant to do was throw in my vote for the correct terms to be using in conversations and it led here. Sorry to sidetrack the thread.

Void

when refering specifically to an individual, go with what they use, particulary when talking to them about it. if you are corrected, just take as a more specifc label that they prefer. if it doesn't make sense ask. if what they use is questionable to others you might be talking to it's perfectly all right to make it clear that it's their own label, and not yours.

when talking in general about a group, probably safer to stick with the tried and true. reclaimed words are a touchy subject for some, even within the community reclaiming them, but especially if it comes from outside the community... people within the community are given a lot more leeway in this regard, that's pretty much the same for any community, not just queer ones. (see what I did there?)

as applies to the questionnaire and your friends self definition... if it's an option, then it's acceptable. but more than that genderqueer isn't really an insult, reclaimed or otherwise... it's constructed from one, but the construction is about defining identity rather than reclaiming... the difference may be lost on someone outside of that community, but it's also not something used against that community from the outside so there's no alternative negative meaning.

on the flip side, even "formal" terms can become offensive over time... take "retarded" for instance... it has a perfectly reasonable origin meaning restrained by outside limits... but it was used for so long as both an insult and in the systematic degradation of people, that it became unacceptable. Eku had an excellent thread on just that recently in regards to the acceptability of the word "Fucktard".

the best rule though is just to ask the person using it... sometime the personal definition varies a bit, because the language hasn't settled to a formal level, and you'll always learn a lot more about the individual, so hey, bonus.

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- These eyes can do more than see

Joshua Nightshade

It's a lot more open-ended than we're generally led to believe. People are pushed into paradigms of one or the other that it really doesn't reflect reality. A woman who feels like a sexual encounter with another woman every now and then isn't allowed to identify as straight if she wishes; she's expected to be bisexual even if that's not an accurate term for her. A gay man can't sleep with a woman and be seen as still gay if that's what he feels; to say nothing about straight men sleeping with guys, etc. The label really should be more of a personal thing and societal pressures to conform to one or the other should be ancillary.

Joshua Nightshade

If you can give me a more specific example of something like this, I can try and explain in more detail.

Memir Quinn

As a transgendered woman leaning heavily toward the androgynous side of things I personally don't really have a issue with much beyond shemale, ladyboy, dickgirl et al. Believe me, on the off occasion someone will trot out some variant of the above and act all surprised that someone transgendered might get offended by it (or my case not get deeply offended so much as write off whomever were using such descriptives). I think with somethings, like the above, a measure of common sense can be applied and thus avoiding questionable terms being used (most of the above were invented by the porn/sex industry as descriptive for those out there that see transgendered folk as nothing more than sexual objects and are clearly derogatory).


Mostly though? I'm happy to be identified not by my gender (especially since a lot of people I run into during my daily life whom don't know me aren't really sure about anyway owing mostly to my choices in clothing) but by my name. I'm comfy with that, and given my general lack of interest in sex anyway I really rather doubt as to the importance of a label beyond that.

Carn Windlow

I have a friend who teaches school. We were talking the other day and in referring to a picture I have on my hard drive I used the term "Oriental Lady" , she jumped on it and informed me that the correct term was Asian. I certainly meant no disrespect in any shape or form and I am being careful to use the proper terminology now. However in a more recent conversation I was laid into by someone for using the term. I have no idea what they would have had me use instead because after chewing my sorry ass for awhile she left in a huff. Left me somewhat bewildered and wondering about other words I use that offend without meaning to.

pancake

Memir, if it's not too personal, may I ask how you feel about alternate pronouns? Using Xe instead of She or He for example. I've only seen them typed, so I don't know how to even pronounce that.

Again, the fact that there even ARE alternate pronouns is new information I gleaned only this evening so I'm still processing.

Carn Windlow

I found "hir" which is supposed to be gender neutral. But I don't know how many people I talk to would know that.