Surreal

Thanks so much for your thoughtful post. I've been hitting this on the fly while juggling other things and I really appreciate the time it took to lay all that out.

Rosemaery Lorefield

I can agree with this. A 16 year old *knows* what can happen if she has sex and in some states is *capable* of consenting to sex.

There is a reason why there is no such thing as consensual sex with an 11 year old. They are a child, incapable of grasping the implications of having sex. They most certainly are not capable of understanding the implications of having a baby!

Rosemaery Lorefield

No they can't. You get the choice of kicking them out or being legally responsible for both. If you allow them to live under your roof, you will be legally bound to make sure the baby is cared for and liable if it is not.

I don't think that anyone should be allowed to knock their pregnant teen out, take them to the clinic, strap them down and have their fetus removed. I *do* think that parents should have the right to weigh heavily on the decision.
The bill itself states that a female cannot be coerced into an abortion through either assault or threats to her person or employment. This is too vague, and it can (and will) be used to limit a parent's ability to tell their child exactly what is going to happen in they go through with a pregnancy. It could even be used to sue a parent for threatening to kick the girl out since she has no means to care for herself and her baby- that can be interpreted as a threat to her person. That's bullshit.

Rosemaery Lorefield

This is exactly where I am coming from on this. Thank heavens I managed to get my daughter through HS not knocked up. If she had though, we would have been screwed if she insisted on keeping the baby. I make enough for us to live comfortably and have *some* nice things. I make enough to put a decent dent in her college tuition. I do not make enough to pay the bills for a baby, especially daycare, so she could finish HS, go to college and hopefully end up with a job that might contribute to the household somehow. There would be no other way than for her to drop out and take care of the baby.

Rosemaery Lorefield

If you took "dropping off in the woods" literally then I am sorry.
Yes, I have a choice of either kicking out my own child and grandchild OR being legally responsible for raising them both. Great choices.

Surreal

Or... you could persuade the kid that an abortion or adoption was the best choice.

If they decided to continue the pregnancy, you could even invoke the "what's going to be best for the baby" discussion. If you had a decent relationship with your daughter to start with, and are able to lay out the various choices and consequences cogently and without then there is no reason the kid should make the least advantageous choice.

Fluttercat

This. A million times this. The world would be in a better place if people would accept that their children aren't pure angels who can't think for themselves and can't adjust to the consequences of their actions. Information is not a bad thing. The more the better.

As for how I'm reading the rest, I guess I'm seeing it wrong. It just struck me how everyone says it doesn't apply to them. I still think it does. It is just someone else exerting the force over their child that will affect your own child for the rest of his life.

Rosemaery Lorefield

I'm a mother of a teen too, and I was a teen (18) mom myself, so I think I have some experience with it

Of course her life isn't going to be "super peachy". I wouldn't even be able to swing "somewhat bearable".

In all honesty, if she got pregnant now, at 17, I would tell her fine, you take care of the kid. I don't plan on her leaving the house anytime soon anyways, but there is no way on earth I can pay to feed and clothe her and a baby + send her to college + pay for daycare.
If she had become pregnant while in HS, matters would have been even worse because I wouldn't even be able to afford daycare so she could finish HS, much less have anything left to save for college.

Surreal

I'll be honest, I really don't 'get' a lot of the arguments in this thread.

If my pre-teen/teen daughter was pregnant, I wouldn't be bitching at her, I'd be trying to help her get through the situation with the least lasting harm to her or the baby.

I'd be freaking out in private, with a best friend probably and seriously questioning where I went wrong as a parent. Because at least some of the fault would be at my door. But I'd save the recriminations and the drama for after we'd seen everything safely through. That's why I'm the grown-up.

Looking back, I was a mediocre parent in many ways, but I still did not fail my children in preparing them to be adults. They were given increasing level of responsibility from the time they could stand and they were always guided towards critical thinking skills and praised/rewarded for good decisions. Most of all, they were allowed to make decisions where the outcome significantly impacted them. They weren't allowed to be little autocrats, but they did not doubt that they're opinions were heard and weighed.

For example, if my pregnant teenager decided that they wanted to keep the baby, we would go through the ramifications of that, including finances, free time, and future plans. I would lay out examples without judgment or emotion.

I would reminded her that her decision includes other people and asked what plans she has concerning the father, and what they expected from their parents. Then the father would be given a chance to push back, as would we.

That's what a real decision comprises - not a unilateral "I want this and everything is going to be my way" but rather "I want this and since other people are involved, what compromises can we make." The time to teach them these realities is when they're 5, not 11.

Then we'd draw up a contract and lay out the consequences for failing to honor it. An example might be that one night a week, the parents would babysit provided she'd fullfilled other committments.

It would suck, but it would be a finite suck. At a certain point, she'd move out regardless.

Misty Harley

Add into the fact that hypothetically, the daughter now has a child of her own and mom paying for college if mom helps out and assists with buying diapers and clothes for baby is now out of the question.

I'm not really sure how all states work but there IS help for teen mothers in forms of assistance for college, daycare, baby care (food, etc, including health insurance). It's not a "grandparents must now foot the bill for every blasted thing' there are options for assistance for the teen mother that should be used to help them keep their life together, graduate high school and possibly even a tech school/college education. And even if they don't go the tech/college route, there are still jobs they can get (hey..they might have to have two jobs, who knows...welcome to adult hood!) that will still provide a roof over their head and food on their table.

Is it always what we want for our children when they grow up? Oh hell no....but guess what...the choices they made changed what WE want for them and now, as parents, we need to help them achieve the goals that their decisions have lead them to.

__________________

Surreal

An unwanted pregnancy does apply to the father, but not to the same degree and not with the same menu of choices.

In some ways, it sucks a lot to be the Dad. One of the things I told my son, is what if you really do believe that every conception is a child and that it's wrong to abort. If you participate in an unplanned pregnancy, it doesn't matter what you believe - you don't get to choose, but you have to live with the choice. So Don't Fuck Up in the First Place.

Rosemaery Lorefield

The term is coerced abortion. It's much broader and sweeping than "forced abortion".

Surreal

Only somewhat related, but my view of the father's situation is what colors my contempt for guys who say they were trapped into a pregnancy.

Men (like women) should be responsible for their own birth control, every time, no matter what she says. If two forms of birth control fail, well then... that's a different issue.

Misty Harley

That's just it though. That would be part of her decision making package.

She would have choices to make based on information you gave her. She would not be able to have college paid for because you would have the extra added burden of assisting her with day care. She would have to apply for scholarships and get loans to pay the rest of her college.

She wouldn't have to drop out of HS and the idea of going to college would not be washed away in baby caring. There *are* ways of getting assistance for one, if not both. That doesn't involve money coming out of mom's pocket.

I think sometimes this sort of discussion is looked at as 'all or nothing' because as parents, we want to provide the best possible opportunities for our kids. Sometimes, the decisions THEY make don't allow for that. And then it's our job to help assist them in providing their OWN best possible opportunities.

Rosemaery Lorefield

And that is generally a respected position. Yet, people who don't believe in kicking out their child, that's not given the same consideration apparently.

Misty Harley

Rosemaery, I disagree with your post because whether or not we think a choice is acceptable or not does not mean the choice ceases to exist.

It's simply a choice we have disqualified as an acceptable outcome.

That goes for abortion, kicking a kid to the curb for anything-including teen pregnancy.

I respect the person right to make those choices, even if they are different then ones I would make myself. But they are still just that....choices. They aren't suddenly 'not a choice' just because we chose to not accept them as an outcome.

Rosemaery Lorefield

This isn't only about physical force, the law makes coercion illegal, which could be used to stop parents from applying any kind of pressure on the pregnant teen.

I think everyone in this thread is focusing only on the scenario of strapping teens down and extracting their fetuses by force, and I think that is a very disingenuous (or ill informed) argument.

Rosemaery Lorefield

Which could be interpreted as coercion= illegal now.

I never said (and never would say) that I believe I should be able to haul my kid down to the clinic, strap her in and scrape out her fetus.

Rosemaery Lorefield

These services exist in theory, in practice, not always so much. Trust me.

Rosemaery Lorefield

This is where I think there is a disconnect. If a teen decides that abortion is not acceptable, it's all hands-off, wishes respected. If I decide that throwing my pregnant teen out is not acceptable, it's still a somehow choice.

I'm telling you, that is no choice, no matter how you try to put it, it would not be an option for me ever. To me, it would be even worse than choosing abortion because I already faced that decision, and decided to keep and raise my child. How on earth could I consider giving her the boot when I have already committed to raising her?

Misty Harley

I think it's more of a misunderstanding. Both are still choices but one/both they are not acceptable outcomes for you personally. That doesn't mean they are no longer choices. It just means they are ones that you would not chose.

If we were real life friends (or you even posted on a this forum) that you were tossing your child out on the streets because she was pregnant....I would respect your right to do that. It's not a choice *I* would make. But I would respect your right to make that choice (I realize you said you would never do that, it's an example). I might not even respect YOU personally for doing it (same with if a parent demanded their child get an abortion) but I will respect your right to make those decisions.

I probably would try to persuade you NOT to do that (depends, possibly she might be better off leaving your house--hypothetically) but in the end, I most certainly would respect your right to decide that throwing the kid out is the best option for you. I might not understand the why's of you doing it..but I would respect the right to do it.

pancake

This, to me, is what is sort of fascinating about this topic when I detach myself from the sensitive issues or my personal opinions as a woman or a mother.

Most seem to agree that when it comes to reproductive health the teen owns their body, I don't disagree, but I can't help but notice that it is one of the few situations in reality where I think parents would feel that way.

When trying to decide why I feel how I feel, I try to frame this in other contexts. Let's say a 12 yr old telling me they are quitting school, getting tattoos on her face and going on the road with their favorite band. When I say no and they pull the "It's my life you don't own me" argument, I can almost guarantee some coercion (not force) is going to take place.

Now if this were twin daughters, same age, both menstruating, and one is pregnant and the other isn't, then the pregnant one is now legally an adult, able to make her own choice about her pregnancy AND do all the things mentioned above, but the other isn't.

Surely it takes more than having a fertilized egg to be an adult, yet the circumstances change quite dramatically when a pregnancy is involved. I don't know that I completely understand why I feel they are suddenly different, but they are. Also interesting to note that the boy who biologically was equally "mature" enough to procreate is not legally an adult. I don't necessarily think either of those is wrong, but it's certainly fascinating to me to think this is how and where we as society make the lines of child vs adult.

Abortion is a very sensitive topic, even if you are pro choice, or perhaps more so if you are because a woman's right to chose and govern her body is something we hold dear. I'm not disputing that. It's just interesting that governing your own body and life choices is age dependant in all but this one circumstance and only applicable to female teens and not male.

__________________

Rosemaery Lorefield

There is definitely that, especially in an emotionally charged issue like this.

Surreal

Current case law doesn't support your assertion.

Surreal

What do you mean?
Both are choices.
You both have choices.
The only difference is who the choice belongs to.
You don't get to make hers and she doesn't get to make yours.