Polo

(she) ^_^

Beebo Brink

I've read your posts over several times and I see the same thing every time. I bolded the part of one post that I find to be a mischaracterization of what Joshua and I have discussed. Here's another:

You keep slanting the previous discussions toward this mythical element of "then is it also okay for pedophiles?". No, it's not. No one even considered that as a question or an open issue to debate, but you keep repeating that we did and then refuting it. YOU raised the issue, not us. Then you refuted it, when it had never been raised at all.

Wtf? That was an unecessary side road that continues to mischaracterize the discussions that preceded. But if you're going to go down that road, then be clear that it is a question that you, and you alone, were raising.

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Noob: "okay.... im in a house with cages and people in gags and the door just locked and i cant get out :c"

Joshua Nightshade

I also said quite clearly that the safety of children (and I'd extend that to consenting individuals entirely) comes first, full stop. At no point would I even begin to suggest that paedophiles have a right to molest children. That's completely ludicrous.

I'll suggest that you just let Polo spin around and around though, otherwise she'll pull you into a black hole where she accuses you of being an abusive libeller because she has a different definition of "and" than the rest of the world does.

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Joshua Nightshade

That was not, at all, the parallel whatsoever.

The parallel I brought up (given the fact that you keep quoting me and completely missing what it was I actually wrote) was that I cannot stop being gay tomorrow if I wanted to, and logistically I don't believe a paedophile can "stop" being driven towards sexual impulses involving children either.

But when it comes to handling paedophiles, all treatment revolves around reaffirming to paedophiles that they do have control over this impulse, they choose to disregard their self-restraint, they fail to employ willpower to stop themselves. It's no shock to me then that recidivism rates are so high, and the abuses escalate the more pressure there is on someone not to get caught.

Again, as I said already, allowing them to have sex with children is not an option at all. So the question becomes how to deal with someone who has a destructive, harmful compulsion in a way that won't hurt them and drive them to hurt others. That question never gets broached and most "treatment" revolves on telling a paedophile "you can stop this any time you want, why won't you?" I don't believe that it's possible, and framing the topic under that context bothers me.

I never for a moment even tangentially suggested that there were "rights" when it came to paedophilia, so that's something you pulled out of the air entirely on your own.

bladyblue

This part of the conversation started with me pointing out that the writers at the NAMBLA website made that comparison. It was not a comparison made here.

Polo expanded upon that statement and pointed out how wrong it was.

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I've seen things you people wouldn't believe. Attack ships on fire off the shoulder of Orion. I watched C-beams glitter in the dark near the Tannhauser gate. All those moments will be lost in time... like tears in the rain...Time to die.-Roy Batty

Shiloh Lyric

I recently read a book...can't remember the name of it offhand...written by a woman, who for most of her childhood and into her adulthood, was "victim" of a pedophile. Although, I do think a part of her loved him as much as the other part hated him. It was a good book and clearly showed that now, after the distance of time, she can see where and how he manipulated her, starting at age 7.

I think he was in his 50s when it all began. Later, their relationship was no longer sexual, and he was on medication which, from my understanding, helped to control those impulses. However, even the author believed that if pedophiles seek help before they cross the line, certain medications and therapy would help in them being able to exert some control. But what would the side effects be of that medication, too. If someone has never abused a child, I certainly don't want them to suffer needlessly, even if the thought of them even viewing child porn makes me, personally, feel very ill. It's a visceral reaction I can't control, but it doesn't mean I don't feel compassion for their struggles when they feel that sort of attraction.

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Beebo Brink DO NOT LINK THE CLUMP!!!

"There is no problem so large that it can't be solved by brute force and ignorance."
~Siggy Romulus (11/13/12)



http://shilohlyric.wordpress.com/

Joshua Nightshade

Who the fuck cares what NAMBLA has to say about anything?

Misty Harley

Possibly, I am one of the few who does not think (and haven't seen any evidence to point to it) that a pedophile is 'born that way.'

I think it's created. Through past experiences of their own and THAT I can feel sympathy for. But I cannot feel sympathy for someone who does not have the ability to fix those urges the past experiences cause. I just don't.

I think they can be 'fixed' as much as an alcoholic can be 'fixed' based on therapy, support and possibly medicinal help. But in the end, it's on them to 'fix' it themselves. They relapse, I have a hard time sympathizing with that as well.

I am also willing to admit this might partly be based on the fact I was abused as a kid. I don't know. Or I'm just a cold hearted bitch when it comes to this subject and I'm ok with that too.

I don't think it's so much important to find the cause AFTER they acted on their urges as much as it would be to fix those urges to begin with but only THEY can fix it because WE can't read their minds and know what ill intention thoughts are towards children.

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Misty Harley

Shiloh, it's a visceral reaction because in order to create that type of viewing for a pedo, children have to be abused. I'm not nearly as nice of a person for you because I don't have sympathy for their struggles. I just don't.

Joshua Nightshade

Well, that's kind of the point. Who wants to go to a therapist to say that they're afraid they want to have sex with a kid given the immediate (and understandable) hostility such an admission inspires?

Misty Harley

Except aren't therapists in the patient confidentiality thing? They can't talk about their patience unless under court order or something?

I know I'm pretty hard core about this but the issue is that they KNOW they have an issue but nobody else does. I'm not in the camp of "make them feel comfortable getting help" because I think that would backfire and make it socially acceptable.

This could be my OWN fear and anger coming out, I get that.

Ninja edit to add: so basically society already says 'it's wrong' and if my thought that therapists are under patient confidentiality....then the only thing stopping them from getting help is themselves. We, society...can't really fix that because we can't read minds.

Joshua Nightshade

I believe therapists are still legally obligated to contact the police if they know or believe a crime has been/will be committed. If someone goes to a therapist and says "I'm afraid I'm going to kidnap the neighbour's kid and rape them" I don't think confidentiality protects that.

Misty Harley

So basically there is no help for them and they either act on the thoughts or they don't.

So maybe instead of concentrating on figuring out ways to help these individuals not act on the urges.....society should instead be concentrating on stopping all the different forms of abuse that could lead to this that occurs against children. It's not just sexual abuse as a kid that would lead someone to be a pedo...it's also a sign of the need to control and be superior as well.

Joshua Nightshade

As a victim of sexual assault as a child, I don't really like the argument that such abuse begets further abuse either.

Misty Harley

I'm not overly fond of it myself but it's like anything else. You either continue with what you know, even though you also know it's wrong. Or you figure out how to be better then what you know is wrong.

It's how cycles continue or break (IMO anyway). Everyone, including those that abuse...know it's wrong. They have choices to make; continue or stop. How that happens is the catch. Pedo falls in this, so I'm a bit of a hypocrite I guess and talking in circles since I have very (and I do mean very) limited patience for all forms of child abuse, but that is beyond limited patience for me.

Asher Bertrand

Not quite.

If it's a just in general "I have thoughts of doing this," the therapist should explore exactly what that means. Doing what, exactly. Doing it to whom, exactly? Do they have the means to do it? Same thing with a client who talks about suicide. Yes, if they said, "I made a plan to kidnap this neighbor's kid and do XYZ," that would be reportable. If it was just "I'm attracted to kids," then no.

At least in my state, you only have a duty to report if someone or the client themselves is in immediate danger of harm.

It's not a reportable offense to say "I have urges I think are wrong and I want to do something about it."

And, while any therapist I've ever talked with has strong feelings against child abuse, I think most of us would be glad the person is seeking help. I would take such a statement very seriously, but I wouldn't hate them for it. I would be relieved they are in my office rather than out there doing something worse.

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Joshua Nightshade

That would probably be why I did not use that as my example.

Hana

Except, i personally, never heard of an alcoholic cure their alcoholism "on their own". With their "will power" alone. i've only heard of people getting over that with /help/. Help from a therapist, group therapy, god, whatever, but i've never heard of someone who was an alcoholic, become "cured" all by themselves.

~

But that is what pedophiles are left with. i think someone who has not abused a child, but has a sexual attraction they believe is wrong, should be able to get help. But there is no help for them. Perhaps we could /prevent/ more children from being abused if we found ways to /help/ people who have inappropriate sexual responses towards children /before/ they offend.

As society is set up now, help is not easy to get, before the fact.

It actually used to be similar with alcoholism. There was a time in the past getting /help/ for that wasn't possible. Admitting you were an alcoholic could (and still does, to a lesser degree) stigmatize you socially. So people were left to just /hide/ it, or have society think they "lacked the moral character" that the rest of the non-alcoholic society had.

Anyway. i think there needs to be a safe way for people to get help, before they hurt someone.

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Hana

what if the person admitted that, but the therapist also knew there were minor children living in their house?

The patient says they haven't hurt the children in their care, but admits to having "urges" towards children.. it doesn't seem like it'd take much for the therapist to take the leap that "having urges towards children" + "children living in the house" = "i, as a therapist, need to report this because those children are in danger."

What if the confessor is in any profession that has them around minors. Like Sandusky's actual case. If he'd gone in and said he has "urges", with the therapist knowing he had contact with children ... wouldn't they call someone? or feel on the edge to? Even if this was maybe waaay back before Sandusky had even done anything at all?

Will a therapist /really/ not make any calls?

Asher Bertrand

It's hard to say from that alone. I think it would have a lot to do with how intensely they reported feeling them, how they said they coped with or managed them, if they had a prior history of abuse, etc. "Urges" aren't against the law, after all. Specific acts are. In the end, it's a judgment call, and I imagine it sometimes ends up as a balancing act between valuing confidentiality, the desire to prevent possible harm to children and good old-fashioned CYA. It's not a perfect answer, but neither are people.

Kokoro Fasching

The problem is that once DHS/CPS gets involved, they work from the angle of Guilty until proven more innocent than Jesus. And they wreck the family's life until they are satisfied, if ever.

Beebo Brink

If someone can get to the point of admitting they have a problem and seeking help, that's a big step. I suspect that facing the truth in the first place is a far bigger impediment. The brain is very adept at finding justifications that avoid brutal honesty about one's own failings.

The challenges of protecting women, children and the most vulnerable in our population are all tied together. A modern industrialized society provides opportunities for abuse of all kinds, and there really isn't a foolproof way to get around that. It's also a self-perpetuating pattern because that same societal structure makes it harder to spot the twisted, the corrupt, the vicious members that are a threat.

We evolved in small, close-knit groups that nurtured children and didn't provide the kind of privacy in which abuse thrives. The farther we get from that family-clan paradigm, the harder it becomes to police our members.

Misty Harley

So now we have the extra equation of protecting children from 'possible' harm occurring through the person seeking help.

I'm tossed on this to be honest. I always think of the negative with this stuff (probably shouldn't) But what if the guy doesn't control his urges, even with therapy, med's, etc. Or even WITH therapy he doesn't control them? Of if he is lieing right from the beginning and is not controlling them all along but still trying to seek out help or playing a sick game?

At what point would a child's protection over rule the need to help someone with these sorts of urges that would harm the children? Knowing that there are times Child Services boggles things up but other times...we bitch and yell if they don't protect the children. Isn't it a catch 22 at some point? One is going to have to be more important then the other (child versus harmful urges)

Brenda Archer

I'd sure like to know where people get this idea from. I'm sure it happens - I've seen it - but I have seen MANY more situations in which CPS does fuck all nothing, even when people in the community can SEE the abuse is happening.

And a family that allows one of their children to be molested and continues to allow it has no rights, they just don't. They are accomplices to a crime.

My biggest fear is that we're going to medicalize child sexual abuse and sweep it back under the rug in such a way that reporting will be useless for protecting the child from further rapes. We are partway there already. Because rights of families, keep families together, blah blah blah, nobody cares if a child is ruined by years of rape.

Asher Bertrand

Or after years of it. I know a young woman who ran away from an extremely abusive home when she was 18 - her parents had nearly killed her. She was told that it was a shame that she didn't come to police when she was 17, when they could have done something for her, but now she was SOL and on her own. All they did was help her get a PPO. That's messed up.