Cindy Claveau

Santa Claus wants to pardon you. Do you accept?

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Seyla Warden

That doesn't speak at all as to how accurate the translation is.

The fact that it's known as a version should clue you in, kind of implies there are other versions, you know? How do you know your version is the pristine, unchanged one?

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Seyla Warden

If God created us and everything else, then it created us with the ability to be criminals. If it really wanted to 'get rid of the chaos' all it had to do was create us in such a way that we could not become criminals. Poof, problem never existed.

So basically what you are saying is that God decided "Yeah, I'ma make these dudes all criminal-like"

Cindy Claveau

The only really, truly accurate versions of the Bible were written in Greek, Hebrew or Aramaic (depending on the author). Unless the Troll can read those languages fluently, he doesn't have a clue what he's talking about.

Eris

If, as God can, all we had to do was pardon the criminals and they would no longer be criminals, then yes, we would have no need for prisons.

God doesn't need hell, or sacrifice of any sort to do that.

eighthdwarf Checchinato

Citations?

I'll help you out with quoting Mark:
So, Jesus didn't stop the sacredness of the Sabbath, and never preached to break it, but only attempted to reform the exaggerated rules for the Sabbath, rules the Pharisees invented (while not being backed up by the Thorah) to control the masses better

It seems you haven't read James 2 then: "You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone." (James 2:24)



So why does a self-appointed biblethumber like you attempt to spread lies about what's written in the very same bible you claim to hold so sacred?

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xfrodobagginsx

They talk about Jesus, that He died on the cross, that His followers believe that He performed miracles, that His followers believe that He rose from the dead. Why would His followers believe that He rose from the dead? How would He convince them? Don't you think that if He hadn't risen from the dead, there would be writings from His day refuting the followers claims? Wouldn't they say something like "He didn't rise from the dead, His body is still in the tomb." But that didn't happen. Why would Jesus's followers be willing to DIE for Jesus knowing that He didn't really rise from the dead? 11 out of 12 of His disciples were tortured and killed for their faith. They wouldn't have been willing to do that if they hadn't actually seen Him risen from the dead.

I've read many of the snippets, Josephus and other stuff.


This one alone talks about Jesus dying and that He performed undeniable miracles.

BABYLONIAN TALMUD: (Completed in the 6th Century A.D
The Babylonian Talmud is a Rabbinic commentary of the Jewish scriptures (Tanach: Old Testament). They are a look into what is a hostile source was saying about Jesus. They could not deny the miracles but claimed that it was sorcery rather than admit to what was a known fact.
On the eve of the Passover Yeshu was hanged. For forty days before the execution took place, a herald went forth and cried, “He is going forth to be stoned because He has practiced sorcery (an admission of his miracles) and enticed Israel to apostasy. Any one who can say anything in his favor let him come forward and plead on his behalf. But since nothing was brought forward in his favor he was hanged on the even of the Passover.”
The Babylonian Talmud, vol. III, Sanhedrin 43a

How can you honestly say that these writings don't refer to Jesus and only to His followers? It talks about His crucifixion


LUCIAN: (120-180 A.D.)
a Greek satirist that spoke scornfully of Christ and Christians, affirming that they were real and historical people, never saying that they were fictional characters.
“The Christians, you know, worship a man to this day — the distinguished personage who introduced their novel rites, and was crucified on that account….You see, these misguided creatures start with the general conviction that they are immortal for all time, which explains the contempt of death and voluntary self-devotion which are so common among them; and then it was impressed on them by their original lawgiver that they are all brothers, from the moment that they are converted, and deny the gods of Greece, and worship the crucified sage, and live after his laws. All this they take quite on faith, with the result that they despise all worldly goods alike, regarding them merely as common property.”
Lucian, The Death of Peregrine. 11-13.

This one confirms the Biblical claim that the sun went dark when Jesus died. Interesting:


PHLEGON: (1st Century)
A secular historian wrote a history named, “Chronicles.” This original work has been lost, Julius Africanus preserved a small fragment in his writings. Phlegon mentions the eclipse (Matthew 27:45) during the crucifixion of Jesus.
“During the time of Tiberius Caesar an eclipse of the sun occurred during the full moon.”Africanus, Chronography, 18:1

How can you say that these writings are not about Jesus, but only His followers? Come on now.

QUADRATUS: (125 A.D.)
Bishop of Athens and a disciple of the apostles. Church historian Eusebius has preserved the only work that we have from Quadratus.
“The deeds of our Savior were always before you, for they were true miracles; those that were healed, those that were raised from the dead, who were seen, not only when healed and when raised, but were always present. They remained living a long time, not only whilst our Lord was on earth, but likewise when he had left the earth. So that some of them have also lived in our times.”
Eusebius, IV, III

EPISTLE OF BARNABAS: (130-38 A.D.)
Mentions the Resurrection, miracles, content of the Gospels and the crucifixion of Jesus.


You're kidding yourself if you think that these writings don't support the eyewitness, biblical accounts. Jesus is Lord.

Imnotgoing Sideways

Words. Just words. (^_^)

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xfrodobagginsx

How do you know how old they were? Many of them were written within 20-50 years after the event.

Cindy Claveau

I'm just guessing here, but you have never actually read any real Biblical scholarship, have you?

Thought so.

Joy Honey

So? How does that legitimize it? Again, circular reasoning.

Translations from translations from translations often lose something along the way and quite often have things added to them or taken out to suit the agenda of the day. Especially when commissioned by a king who wanted the Bible to conform to the Church of England. Why is the Protestant version of the Bible acceptable to you and not the Catholic version? Why not the Eastern Orthodox version which contains 51 books as opposed to the Protestant version which contains only 39?

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Sonja Aeghin

You don't know how a pardon works, do you?. A pardon is usually granted after the offender has been tried and punished. Unless you're Richard Nixon. And why not? The threat of punishment is not punishment. At least the statutes of the Israelites written in the Torah carried earthly punishments. Fear of punishment from beyond the grave deters is silly. Take it from Spanish missionaries of the 16th century: evangelism works better when you have to coercive power of the State behind you.

Plus unlike then, we know there aren't boogeymen lurking in the void and there are no demons in the dark. Such are derivatives of the fundamental fear of the unknown. It gives comfort to those who worry that there may be nothing but oblivion beyond the grave to believe that they will carry on in some form. But there's no objective proof of that. So believing acts like an insurance policy.

Eris

Your source includes dates.

By your logic, I could write about the Lindbergh Kidnapping, and it could be considered an eyewitness account.

Bard Jameson

Innula Zenovka

The fact that Abraham Lincoln: Vampire Hunter was published some 150 years after his death, and a movie made on the subject, would not, I suggest, provide valid support for someone who wanted to claim, in a couple of thousand years' time, that vampires were a common hazard of life in C19th America.

Or, if you prefer, the fact that Vlad III, Prince of Wallachia (1431–1476), was most certainly an historical figure does not prove the existence of vampires.

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eighthdwarf Checchinato

Oh .. and again our Frodroll:
Guess which ethnicity and which belief your supposed savior did belong to! Exactly: He was a Jew, just like all of his apostles! Even Paul (formerly known as the Roman citizen Saul of Tarsos) was a Jew, a Pharisee even. A member of the same group who executed Jesus, according to the Bible.

Aribeth Zelin

Actually, you are very wrong. In fact, to my knowledge, only fringe evangelical sects still use the KJB - it is KNOWN that under order of the king, things were translated to give more legitimacy to the crown [ie, it was not done to be accurate, but to say 'God says Kings are better than you, so there!' as well as other errors [such as 'You shall not suffer a poisoner [of wells] to live.' becoming 'You shall not suffer a witch to live.'

I was raised Catholic, and for a short time I went to a SBC church - neither used the KJB [much to my surprise on the latter]. I even taught Sunday School while still in grade school. I could say the Mass when I was 5-6 years old. I've read multiple versions of the Bible. My grandmother is Episcopalian, they don't use the KJB either.

Really, if you want to make an argument at least get your facts straight - otherwise you're just coming off as a fanatical idiot.

The earliest dated gospel is Matthew [accepted date] and it is dated around the 3rd-4th century AD. Realize it is harder to date really old texts because often they are working from copies and so they have to use written clues, including language.

There is controversy on whether John's gospel is the oldest or the youngest, because of weird conflicts on the writing, but even that's not believed to be old enough to have been written by eyewitnesses. Very few scholars think that any of the Gospels were actually written by the Apostles they are assigned to, and even back in the 80s they didn't think so. In fact, if you go with the whole fishermen and carpenter take on things, only a few of the Apostles were probably literate at all.

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The fact is, unless you are reading it in the original languages it was written in, you aren't getting it entirely accurate - there is a reason that if you don't read the Koran in arabic, you are considered to only be reading a translation. Some faiths have more sense [apparently] than others on that front.

Language does not translate on a 1 for 1 basis. Some cultures use one word for something another language uses 20, and the same in reverse. And we still don't truly know the culture of that period. Without that, the words don't mean much.

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xfrodobagginsx

Nope. The disciples gathered on the first day of the week. Read your bible.

Ac 20:7 ¶ And upon the first day of the week, when the disciples came together to break bread, Paul preached unto them, ready to depart on the morrow; and continued his speech until midnight.
1Co 16:2 Upon the first day of the week let every one of you lay by him in store, as God hath prospered him, that there be no gatherings when I come.
(KJV)


Secondly, I told you that we are not under the sabbath because we are not under the law.

Ro 3:20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

Ro 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.


Nope. December 25 doesn't belong to satan. All days belong to God. It doesn't matter if the disciples celebrated Chrstmas on that day or not. I do and it's not because I'm commanded to. Yes, it was adopted not to attract the pagan converts, but to replace the religious holidays of the pegan converts. Theirs nothing wrong with it. If your concience tells you not to celebrate it, then don't. As far as I know, the bible doesn't tell me not to celebrate Christ's birth and all days belong to God.


It happened at passover true. Jesus said "as often as you would" regarding communion. So you don't get to tell me when I should or have to take it. I'll let God do that. The bible confirms that He rose from the dead on Sunday. If your going to try and argue the bible, then learn the Bible.

Joh 20:1 ¶ The first day of the week cometh Mary Magdalene early, when it was yet dark, unto the sepulchre, and seeth the stone taken away from the sepulchre.

Jesus didn't, that's correct, but Paul did. The disciples were still under the law, not grace. The doctrine of grace was given to Paul, not the 12. They were to minister to Israel. Because Israel rejected Christ, the gospel of grace went to the gentiles through Paul.

Paul writes:

Ro 16:25 ¶ Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,


The gospel of the gentiles (uncircumcision) was given to Paul. The gospel of the Jews (Circumcision) was given to Peter and the disciples.

Paul writes:

Ga 2:7 But contrariwise, when they saw that the gospel of the uncircumcision was committed unto me, as the gospel of the circumcision was unto Peter;


They had a different gospel than each other.


Before you try and teach someone the Bible, you need to learn it yourself. My salvation is secure in Jesus Christ. You can't it from me. False ministers will get it the worst in hell.

Autumn Palen

Yeah, I think it's deeply obvious you don't have a very good understanding of the texts you are citing, nor do you have any experience in the differences between primary and secondary sources, the need to determine bias in sources, or even the bare basics of historiography.

It's appearant, too, that this thread you created wasn't made for "discussion" as you've claimed a few times, because--let's cut to the chase: your agenda was to proselytize, to preach, to convert; each of which isn't conducive to discussion, or an exchange of ideas that involves give and take, contemplation and response.

Though, I think even deeper, your proselytizing agenda is perhaps secondary. It's often seemed to me when people start threads such as yours, which I'm guessing you have a pattern of doing across various internet sites, that it serves an inner need to be a bit of a martyr, psychologically.

I say that because in all of your responses there doesn't seem to be any hint of care or concern or compassion about the people you're interacting with, to their own thoughts, experiences, religious beliefs, or knowledge. There's a subtle, self-righteous smugness to your posts.

So yeah, this thread really isn't about others or even Christianity, as it's mostly about "you" and your own needs. Though I'm sure you can't even recognize that.

In all sincerity, however, if you are concerned about peoples' souls, their spiritual well-being, I'd recommend being inspirational rather than dogmatic, to connect humanly rather than doctrinally, to rely less on quotes from other and perhaps express more from your heart.

Cindy Claveau

Hypocrite.

Cindy Claveau

Your crappy understanding of Biblical texts aside, and disregarding your obvious need to try to push your crappy, judgmental religion on other people, I find it very hard to take anyone seriously who likes the ultra-right wackadoodle Glenn Beck:

https://www.youtube.com/user/xfrodobagginsx

Consider yourself outed, fucktard.

eighthdwarf Checchinato

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Sonja Aeghin

Prove it. Without a Bible quote. You dared to exempt yourself from one of God's commandments. And still you will not repent, you worthless hypocrite.

It is the self-evident truth that you are an incompetent latter-day Pharisee who condemns the billions who never had a chance to hear the Gospel to eternal damnation. You are EXACTLY who Jesus condemns in the following:

Cindy Claveau

But Wait! There's more!

Don't expect Mr. Wackadoodle to seriously engage in discussion ( if the previous 34 pages haven't already convinced you). He's even more lunatic fringe than he's admitted here. (And I note that he was even banned from a bodybuilding forum!)

Dinosaurs walked with men. Evolution is a lie. - Bodybuilding.com Forums