The Plundering of Pontiac - Page 2 - SLUniverse Forums
Navigation » SLUniverse Forums > Off Topic Discussion > Politics, Religion & Society » The Plundering of Pontiac


Politics, Religion & Society Topics pertaining to politics, religion, philosophy, and social issues. Not for the faint of heart. Also, do not post while drunk, suffering from food poisoning, or while on a low carb diet. You have been warned.

 
Sponsor:
Lionheart Virtual Estate - Experience the Difference!
Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 05-13-2012, 09:04 AM   #26 (permalink)
Suffers Fools Badly
 
Surreal's Avatar
Nap Time
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 11,406
My Mood:
Blog Entries: 49
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aliselia Aeon View Post
As I already said: Go in and clean out the corruption from the city government. A lot of the money is going into their pockets.
How? The corruption seems to start with the mayor and Detroit keeps electing ppl like Kawame?
Surreal is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-13-2012, 09:08 AM   #27 (permalink)
Suffers Fools Badly
 
Surreal's Avatar
Nap Time
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 11,406
My Mood:
Blog Entries: 49
Quote:
Originally Posted by Melodie Darwin View Post
Ann Arbor and Ypsilanti both have a lot of university property, which doesn't generate tax revenue but still receives city services. That means tiny budgets for things like police and fire to cover a larger area. (Yes there are campus police departments, but Ann Arbor has had to repeatedly clean up U of M Public Safety messes).

Ypsilanti vetoed both recent tax increases on the ballot. Ann Arbor has crazy high property taxes but is still cutting city services left and right while spending stupid amounts of money on public art. Ann Arbor also recently replaced an ugly (and deadly) city hall with an even uglier one. So far that one might not be deadly, but they are still screwing up other areas of the city and trying to blame global warming.

I give Ypsilanti 2 years, Ann Arbor 5 years tops before they are in the same boat as Detroit. The only thing slowing it down for those cities is that houses aren't bargain basement properties, yet.
I've only been gone from Ypsi for a few years, but I'm having a hard time buying into your prediction. I bounced it off a couple of friends who still live their and they don't agree either.
Surreal is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-13-2012, 09:13 AM   #28 (permalink)
Dead Guy
 
Asher Bertrand's Avatar
Expert Witless
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 10,020
My Mood:
Blog Entries: 2
Quote:
Originally Posted by Surreal View Post
How? The corruption seems to start with the mayor and Detroit keeps electing ppl like Kawame?
I don't think the current mayor is at all like Kwame. Neither was Archer.
__________________


Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget your perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in.
Asher Bertrand is offline   Reply With Quote
2 Users Said Thanks :
1 User Agreed:
Old 05-13-2012, 09:21 AM   #29 (permalink)
Senior Member

*SLU Supporter*
 
Eunoli Rain's Avatar
In need of a new avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: 2,997
Part of living in a democracy is dealing with the fact that when people elect those who are incompetent or corrupt, there are ways to deal with that fact that include taking legal action such as a recall or corruption investigation. Or, corruption can be addressed by doing what can be done to influence the next election.

Taking away the rights of the people to elect their own officials (or simply stripping those officials of their power) is not and can never be an answer in a democracy. This is tyranical behaviour and it can't be justified. We fought a war to prevent taxation without representation in the United States. That's why we no longer have cool Brittish accents.
Eunoli Rain is offline   Reply With Quote
1 User Likes This:
Old 05-13-2012, 09:42 AM   #30 (permalink)
Suffers Fools Badly
 
Surreal's Avatar
Nap Time
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 11,406
My Mood:
Blog Entries: 49
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eunoli Rain View Post
Part of living in a democracy is dealing with the fact that when people elect those who are incompetent or corrupt, there are ways to deal with that fact that include taking legal action such as a recall or corruption investigation. Or, corruption can be addressed by doing what can be done to influence the next election.

Taking away the rights of the people to elect their own officials (or simply stripping those officials of their power) is not and can never be an answer in a democracy. This is tyranical behaviour and it can't be justified. We fought a war to prevent taxation without representation in the United States. That's why we no longer have cool Brittish accents.
I agree with you on the abrogation of civil rights. I've been bitching at one of my friends in Northville who thinks Snyder is a great idea. Snyder is every bit the opportunistic fascist he's characterized as.

But let's be honest - Detroit has been a cocked-up mess for the last what... 30 years? It's gotten so bad that most people who can leave, have left... including the black middle class (for those who think it's just white flight). Coleman Young created his own little banana republic and it seems like every effort to turn around intractable corruption and poverty since then has been futile.

Add to that the cozy relationship that the auto industry enjoyed with MI state government for years - that actively kept the business base from broadening and diversifying certainly didn't help the business flight from Detroit.

It's easy to say "just clean up the corruption." It's easy to dismiss people's concern as being "only about race, " but the reality is more complex... Detroit is a disaster. It's one of the reasons I won't move back - and I don't give a shit about skin color, nor am I zOMG flee the poor people.

-----------------------------
On a side note: I still remember the nation-wide survey that Match.com did to indicate where somebody looking for <insert trait> was most likely to find their soul mate. MI was the only state where having a college education was less likely to find you love.
Surreal is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-13-2012, 09:51 AM   #31 (permalink)
Imp
 
Gabriell Anatra's Avatar
Who are you?
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: In between.
Posts: 3,034
SL Join Date: Early '06 or late '05, not sure.
Client: Singularity, mostly.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aliselia Aeon View Post
The people of most of the cities that Snyder has been attempting to take over (and that is exactly what it is) don't want this. They have been trying to fight it desperately-especially in Detroit. Many are asking why it is that when there are other towns that are in as much trouble financially, Snyder is concentrating on doing this (against the people's will) to only predominantly Black cities.

People are angered to the point that some have been saying they would rather burn their own city down, than give over their right to have a say in it's government. Make no mistake, this is taking away any say that the citizens of a city he does this to have in what is going to happen in that city. They will have no say in anything. The people they voted for, will have no say in anything. It is as she said-effectively a King that can decree anything he or she wants, and the people can do nothing about it. So he is taking away what may be the most basic right-for people to vote and make decisions about their own communities.

Why is he doing this? Is it to help the communities? Nope. Follow the money.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eris View Post
No taxation without representation. You'd think all those Tea Party types would be up in arms, literally, over this kind of thing.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aliselia Aeon View Post
But, I don't think there are any Tea Partiers in the city of Detroit, and what do they care what happens to a city that is almost 90 percent Black? This doesn't affect the Tea Party types.
It's the plan for the rest of the country as well.

The tea party is just an astroturfing campaign for the money. Feudalism has taken root.
Gabriell Anatra is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-13-2012, 10:00 AM   #32 (permalink)
Dead Guy
 
Asher Bertrand's Avatar
Expert Witless
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 10,020
My Mood:
Blog Entries: 2
Quote:
Originally Posted by Surreal View Post
It's easy to dismiss people's concern as being "only about race, " but the reality is more complex...
I want to clarify: When I said hatred of Detroit, I meant exactly that: Hatred. Concern for Detroit is a whole other matter, and the city desperately needs more concern.

For example, I was hanging out outside a Romney appearance in Michigan this week and there were UAW members with a banner with Romney's infamous phrase, "Let Detroit Go Bankrupt,." Some Romney supporters replied by shouting angrily "Yeah, LET them go bankrupt!" They weren't talking about the auto industry. They meant the city. And that's not because they are concerned for Detroit and think going bankrupt will help it. They hate Detroit because of who lives there. Period.
Asher Bertrand is offline   Reply With Quote
1 User Said Thanks:
1 User Likes This:
Old 05-13-2012, 10:33 AM   #33 (permalink)
Imp
 
Gabriell Anatra's Avatar
Who are you?
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: In between.
Posts: 3,034
SL Join Date: Early '06 or late '05, not sure.
Client: Singularity, mostly.
That's not unique to Detroit though.

There is a strong component of rural vs. city here as well. It is largely about race of course, but gender and education are also strong factors. It's just entitlement arrogance again.

Want fiscal responsibility? Fine. While we're refusing the help the cities lets get rid of the Electoral Collage too. Now there's a redistribution of wealth project if there ever was one.
Gabriell Anatra is offline   Reply With Quote
1 User Agreed:
Old 05-13-2012, 11:05 AM   #34 (permalink)
Senior Member
 
Melodie Darwin's Avatar
Riding away
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Under the Bridge
Posts: 792
My Mood:
SL Join Date: January 7, 2008
Quote:
Originally Posted by Surreal View Post
I've only been gone from Ypsi for a few years, but I'm having a hard time buying into your prediction. I bounced it off a couple of friends who still live their and they don't agree either.
These are what came to mind when I wrote that

After cutting to the bone, Ypsilanti needs a city income tax and Water Street millage

The question of consolidating Township and City services

Ypsilanti needs to be annexed into Ypsilanti Township. The whole charter township part makes it impossible for the city to take the township instead. The city doesn't have the size to provide what it needs to without property values going up or raising taxes. They also lose property taxes to Eastern, churches etc.

Ann Arbor was able to luck out and gobble small islands of Ann Arbor Township once they were surrounded. Ypsilanti doesn't have that ability as they are surrounded by two charter townships.
Attached Thumbnails
The Plundering of Pontiac-city.jpg   The Plundering of Pontiac-township.jpg  
__________________
Melodie Darwin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-13-2012, 11:10 AM   #35 (permalink)
Senior Member

*SLU Supporter*
 
Aliselia Aeon's Avatar
sick of all the bullshit
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Here
Posts: 13,028
SL Join Date: October 27, 2007
Blog Entries: 3
Quote:
Originally Posted by Melodie Darwin View Post
Snyder is part of a group that have had long running shopping lists of places they have been waiting to get their hands on. What better way to speed that up then to keep money from them so those places are impossible to maintain, paving the way for a developer to ride in and lighten the burden for them. Killing the schools and wiping out neighborhoods to foreclosure are just bonus points.
I completely agree.

Quote:
I'm about 45 minutes from Detroit, and have yet to meet anyone who sees the Emergency Manager changes as a good idea. The main concern I've heard is that it doesn't stop at the current cities in trouble.
I have met a lot of people in the suburbs surrounding Detroit that love the idea of an emergency manager. What they don't seem to think about is that it may not stop at Detroit, Pontiac and Highland Park. Of course they think it would never happen to them, because they aren't "like THOSE people" (yeah, that's a quote from one of my old art students-we still communicate). Any city will be up for grabs if they can find any excuse to do so.
__________________
"Push 100cc of Social Skills, stat!" ~Casey Pelous
Aliselia Aeon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-13-2012, 11:13 AM   #36 (permalink)
Senior Member

*SLU Supporter*
 
Aliselia Aeon's Avatar
sick of all the bullshit
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Here
Posts: 13,028
SL Join Date: October 27, 2007
Blog Entries: 3
Quote:
Originally Posted by Surreal View Post
I agree with you on the abrogation of civil rights. I've been bitching at one of my friends in Northville who thinks Snyder is a great idea. Snyder is every bit the opportunistic fascist he's characterized as.

But let's be honest - Detroit has been a cocked-up mess for the last what... 30 years? It's gotten so bad that most people who can leave, have left... including the black middle class (for those who think it's just white flight). Coleman Young created his own little banana republic and it seems like every effort to turn around intractable corruption and poverty since then has been futile.

Add to that the cozy relationship that the auto industry enjoyed with MI state government for years - that actively kept the business base from broadening and diversifying certainly didn't help the business flight from Detroit.

It's easy to say "just clean up the corruption." It's easy to dismiss people's concern as being "only about race, " but the reality is more complex... Detroit is a disaster. It's one of the reasons I won't move back - and I don't give a shit about skin color, nor am I zOMG flee the poor people.

-----------------------------
On a side note: I still remember the nation-wide survey that Match.com did to indicate where somebody looking for <insert trait> was most likely to find their soul mate. MI was the only state where having a college education was less likely to find you love.
Actually,a lot of younger people have been moving back into Detroit the last couple of years.
Aliselia Aeon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-13-2012, 11:19 AM   #37 (permalink)
Senior Member

*SLU Supporter*
 
Aliselia Aeon's Avatar
sick of all the bullshit
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Here
Posts: 13,028
SL Join Date: October 27, 2007
Blog Entries: 3
Quote:
Originally Posted by Surreal View Post
How? The corruption seems to start with the mayor and Detroit keeps electing ppl like Kawame?
Do what they have done in other cities. Go in and investigate city employees and the books, and prosecute anyone they find that is corrupt.

Oh..And the present mayor is nothing like Kwame, was. He isn't like Young, either.
Aliselia Aeon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-13-2012, 11:21 AM   #38 (permalink)
Senior Member

*SLU Supporter*
 
Aliselia Aeon's Avatar
sick of all the bullshit
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Here
Posts: 13,028
SL Join Date: October 27, 2007
Blog Entries: 3
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gabriell Anatra View Post
That's not unique to Detroit though.

There is a strong component of rural vs. city here as well. It is largely about race of course, but gender and education are also strong factors. It's just entitlement arrogance again.

Want fiscal responsibility? Fine. While we're refusing the help the cities lets get rid of the Electoral Collage too. Now there's a redistribution of wealth project if there ever was one.
The suburban middle class tend to be big Detroit haters, too.

Sorry for the multiple posts.
Aliselia Aeon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-13-2012, 12:28 PM   #39 (permalink)
Senior Member
 
Ann Otoole's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 16,374
Sounds to me like there is no state government in Michigan and the feds need to send in troops to seize all the politicians and their assets for a thorough and detailed analysis.

Not having any government would apparently make little difference since they are all doing the last grab before cut and run to costa rica.
Ann Otoole is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-13-2012, 01:04 PM   #40 (permalink)
Senior Member

*SLU Supporter*
 
Aliselia Aeon's Avatar
sick of all the bullshit
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Here
Posts: 13,028
SL Join Date: October 27, 2007
Blog Entries: 3
Isn't it interesting that this happens when:

1. People (mostly young often white) are moving back into Detroit (and developing quite an artist's community).
2. They are building a rail line along the path of the main drag, to better transport people
3. HUD his investing BIG money along the Woodward Corridor (the main drag I spoke of) and the rail line.
4. Many people of the city are actually tearing down the abandoned houses-by themselves.
5. Quite a few people are starting community gardens on abandoned vacant land.
6. A large farming business has been trying to go into Detroit to establish a huge urban farm-which means a lot of money, jobs, and good food for the people.
Hantz Farms | World's Largest Urban Farm Planned for the City of Detroit
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...&v=5B36rrj1zc0

Does anybody think that is a coincidence? There is money to be made by taking over the city.
Aliselia Aeon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-13-2012, 05:02 PM   #41 (permalink)
Suffers Fools Badly
 
Surreal's Avatar
Nap Time
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 11,406
My Mood:
Blog Entries: 49
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aliselia Aeon View Post
Isn't it interesting that this happens when:

1. People (mostly young often white) are moving back into Detroit (and developing quite an artist's community).
2. They are building a rail line along the path of the main drag, to better transport people
3. HUD his investing BIG money along the Woodward Corridor (the main drag I spoke of) and the rail line.
4. Many people of the city are actually tearing down the abandoned houses-by themselves.
5. Quite a few people are starting community gardens on abandoned vacant land.
6. A large farming business has been trying to go into Detroit to establish a huge urban farm-which means a lot of money, jobs, and good food for the people.
Hantz Farms | World's Largest Urban Farm Planned for the City of Detroit
Hantz Farms: Detroit's Saving Grace - YouTube

Does anybody think that is a coincidence? There is money to be made by taking over the city.
Good points.
Surreal is offline   Reply With Quote
1 User Said Thanks:
Old 05-14-2012, 05:28 AM   #42 (permalink)
Senior Member
 
Melodie Darwin's Avatar
Riding away
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Under the Bridge
Posts: 792
My Mood:
SL Join Date: January 7, 2008
Mich. Senate passes personal property tax cuts - BusinessWeek

This is a tax that goes straight to the local governments who collected it. Under the changes, they will have to rely on the state to cover shortages. This will especially hit more industrial areas.
Melodie Darwin is offline   Reply With Quote
1 User Agreed:
Old 05-14-2012, 09:19 AM   #43 (permalink)
Senior Member

*SLU Supporter*
 
Aliselia Aeon's Avatar
sick of all the bullshit
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Here
Posts: 13,028
SL Join Date: October 27, 2007
Blog Entries: 3
Quote:
Originally Posted by Surreal View Post
Good points.
I can see an Emergency Manager deciding to sell off the vacant land in order to make money to "help the city", but selling it to buddies for almost nothing. City makes little off of it, but the buddies stand to make money in the future if property values go up (and especially if the buddies sell it to the large urban farming company).
Aliselia Aeon is offline   Reply With Quote
1 User Agreed:
Old 05-14-2012, 09:25 AM   #44 (permalink)
Senior Member

*SLU Supporter*
 
Aliselia Aeon's Avatar
sick of all the bullshit
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Here
Posts: 13,028
SL Join Date: October 27, 2007
Blog Entries: 3
Quote:
Originally Posted by Asher Bertrand View Post
I want to clarify: When I said hatred of Detroit, I meant exactly that: Hatred. Concern for Detroit is a whole other matter, and the city desperately needs more concern.

For example, I was hanging out outside a Romney appearance in Michigan this week and there were UAW members with a banner with Romney's infamous phrase, "Let Detroit Go Bankrupt,." Some Romney supporters replied by shouting angrily "Yeah, LET them go bankrupt!" They weren't talking about the auto industry. They meant the city. And that's not because they are concerned for Detroit and think going bankrupt will help it. They hate Detroit because of who lives there. Period.
The intensity of the hatred for Detroit and it's residents is astounding.
Aliselia Aeon is offline   Reply With Quote
1 User Agreed:
Old 05-14-2012, 09:52 AM   #45 (permalink)
OccupyE9 Sluni-Goon
 
Kara Spengler's Avatar
Hail Woz, the great and powerful!
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: SL: November RL: DC
Posts: 10,004
SL Join Date: March, 2006
Client: Phoenix & Firestorm
Send a message via Skype™ to Kara Spengler
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eris View Post
No taxation without representation. You'd think all those Tea Party types would be up in arms, literally, over this kind of thing.
Why? They just LOVE it here in DC. We have a mayor and city offices but no representation in congress. So ironically senators from other states have more power here than local officials. We also get used as a pawn in budget battles by both teams.
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by Imnotgoing Sideways View Post
The debug setting for Gender in SL (AvatarSex) is an unsigned 32bit integer value. Not a boolean. I'm still waiting to see what our other options will be. =^-^=
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cristiano View Post
Ok, I have to ask, WTF is this thread even about and why is it hundreds of posts? I am out of vodka so I don't feel like reading it to find out.
Kara Spengler is offline   Reply With Quote
1 User Agreed:
Old 05-14-2012, 10:03 AM   #46 (permalink)
OccupyE9 Sluni-Goon
 
Kara Spengler's Avatar
Hail Woz, the great and powerful!
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: SL: November RL: DC
Posts: 10,004
SL Join Date: March, 2006
Client: Phoenix & Firestorm
Send a message via Skype™ to Kara Spengler
Quote:
Originally Posted by Roxie Marten View Post
Rachel spins a good story but leaves out a couple key facts.

After the Detroit Lions moved to Ford Field the Silverdome almost fell into total disuse and was never able to secure another tenant like the Lions.
In fact it fell so far from grace it was used as a drive in movie theater.
The city saddled with mounting maintenance costs attempted to sell it before.
The Silverdome has been a white elephant that no one has wanted for years.

Second part she is misses.

The emergency manager is a product of cities like Detroit mismanaging it's money and coming to the state for hand out.
This has been a revolving door issue for years.
She is correct there was an effort to put this on the ballot but the majority of the support for this came from Detroit.
In the out state most people support this law.

The reason for this, that is our money they are asking for.
We do not get to vote for the mayor or city council.
Yet they keep expecting us to support their poor choices.
We want to have our interests represented.

There is a an easy solution to the Emergency Manager law.
Get your house in order and don't ask the state to bail you out.
No one likes to be told what to do.
There should be strings attached to the money and not just a free hand out.
I will use the example of DC. By not having a say in local issues we have a de facto emergency manager. Our budget also gets hits from federal stuff, the fact that we have a lot of commuters who come here without paying taxes to DC, and that there are a LOT of places here that do not pay any taxes. Even our subway system is not under our control.

Cities under management by someone else are not always doing things that are their fault.
Kara Spengler is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-14-2012, 10:11 AM   #47 (permalink)
OccupyE9 Sluni-Goon
 
Kara Spengler's Avatar
Hail Woz, the great and powerful!
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: SL: November RL: DC
Posts: 10,004
SL Join Date: March, 2006
Client: Phoenix & Firestorm
Send a message via Skype™ to Kara Spengler
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sonja Aeghin View Post
If the federal government did this with a state, people would be screaming bloody murder.
Which is what you will see if you look up home rule (and congressional representation) for DC.

Of course, we are not a state so I guess the reactions do not count ...
Kara Spengler is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-14-2012, 10:15 AM   #48 (permalink)
Senior Member

*SLU Supporter*
 
Aliselia Aeon's Avatar
sick of all the bullshit
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Here
Posts: 13,028
SL Join Date: October 27, 2007
Blog Entries: 3
Along with what this means for my home town, it disturbs me because if he gets away with this, it other Governors might follow his example. I hope we don't see more and more of this int his country.


ETA: It infuriates me when I see/hear people say that we are "Post-racial" in this country. I have seen way too much of the opposite.
Aliselia Aeon is offline   Reply With Quote
2 Users Hugged You:
Old 05-14-2012, 10:25 AM   #49 (permalink)
Account Closed
so much for status
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Sweet Home ______
Posts: 2,959
My Mood:
SL Join Date: 2/8/2008
Client: Phoenix, Exodus
Blog Entries: 5
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aliselia Aeon View Post
Along with what this means for my home town, it disturbs me because if he gets away with this, it other Governors might follow his example. I hope we don't see more and more of this in this country.
Alabama has to put up with it almost every year. We call it "proration." The governor's office assumes unilateral control of state spending once revenue falls short of projections, which is often. The budgets passed by the legislature go out the window. We're facing a nasty period of it atm.
Sonja Aeghin is offline   Reply With Quote
1 User Hugged You:
Old 05-14-2012, 11:04 AM   #50 (permalink)
Senior Member

*SLU Supporter*
 
Aliselia Aeon's Avatar
sick of all the bullshit
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Here
Posts: 13,028
SL Join Date: October 27, 2007
Blog Entries: 3
They just announced that a 20,000sq feet supermarket is opening in the inner city of Detroit! Yay! Finally a decent supermarket!
Aliselia Aeon is offline   Reply With Quote
3 Users Said Yay!:
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On