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Old 04-30-2012, 11:09 AM   #26 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Roxanne Blue View Post
As someone who campaigns against hate speech and bullying, he might come across as less of a hypocrite if he avoided using such terms himself.



Having been called a "pansy" more than once in my life by homophobes, I'm pretty sure it was not a term of endearment.
See, I found that significantly more offensive and inappropriate, personally.
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Old 04-30-2012, 11:11 AM   #27 (permalink)
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He went on a three minute rant about how the Bible justifies all sorts of social evils.
Uh, well.

It does?

I'm not seeing how that's offensive, it's basically just a fact.
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Old 04-30-2012, 11:11 AM   #28 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Cindy Claveau View Post
What he was saying in the video was that it makes no sense to hold up the parts of Leviticus that agree with someone's homophobia while ignoring the parts that call for animal sacrifices, punishing men who have sex with menstruating women, killing blasphemers and other nonsense.

That's actually a valid, thought-provoking point but it's buried now under the "bullshit" red flag.
And this is why what he did was self-defeating.

Not that it was wrong, just that it wasn't spun and sugar-coated enough to placate those who look for 'issues' to justify their own issues.

Still, he's probably more charitable than I am.
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Old 04-30-2012, 11:13 AM   #29 (permalink)
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And this is why what he did was self-defeating.

Not that it was wrong, just that it wasn't spun and sugar-coated enough to placate those who look for 'issues' to justify their own issues.

Still, he's probably more charitable than I am.
It shouldn't have to be 'spun' and 'sugar-coated' to begin with.

If you're at the point where you need to do that not to simply offend someone for stating a truth, you may as well save yourself the effort of trying.
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Old 04-30-2012, 11:16 AM   #30 (permalink)
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Uh, well.

It does?

I'm not seeing how that's offensive, it's basically just a fact.
I don't get into theological discussions on these forums because they usually wind down to people telling me how stupid and evil I am for being a Christian.
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Old 04-30-2012, 11:17 AM   #31 (permalink)
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^ This never happens.
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Old 04-30-2012, 11:19 AM   #32 (permalink)
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I don't get into theological discussions on these forums because they usually wind down to people telling me how stupid and evil I am for being a Christian.
I thought we were talking about the Bible?

The Bible, the Church (whichever one we happen to be talking about at the time), and the People are three very, very different things.

Being Christian doesn't make you stupid or evil, but it also doesn't mean that the Bible doesn't justify abhorrent social practices.
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Old 04-30-2012, 11:21 AM   #33 (permalink)
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Yes, I do find it interesting that those who spent so much of the 80's and 90's moaning about the rest of us being 'hypersensitive' and 'whiny' have now made it such an issue.

I would find it ironic if I hadn't seen it coming back then. They've always been that way. This is just more projection.
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Old 04-30-2012, 11:25 AM   #34 (permalink)
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am I missing something? I had to watch that video twice and I didn't see a single kid crying. Or really all that upset once you remove the kids who were smiling as they walked out and two girls chatting with each other.

one left first, then a bunch followed then a few stragglers. Almost as if it were planned.
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Old 04-30-2012, 11:25 AM   #35 (permalink)
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Yes, I do find it interesting that those who spent so much of the 80's and 90's moaning about the rest of us being 'hypersensitive' and 'whiny' have now made it such an issue.

I would find it ironic if I hadn't seen it coming back then. They've always been that way. This is just more projection.
I want to hit 'agree' but I was born in '80 so I didn't really notice it while I was growing up (yay sheltered lower-middle-class white upbringing) so it wouldn't feel right.

But yeah, I agree.
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Old 04-30-2012, 11:29 AM   #36 (permalink)
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^ This never happens.
I can't think of a single instance of anyone on this board being attacked personally because of their religious beliefs. The beliefs themselves, yes; the person holding those beliefs? Not once.

PRS can get contentious, but really in order for it to get personal you need a special kind of crazy like the perpster.
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Old 04-30-2012, 11:47 AM   #37 (permalink)
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Of course there's bullshit in the bible:

"The hand of the LORD will rest on this mountain; but Moab will be trampled in their land as straw is trampled down in the manure." - Isaiah 25:9-11

"It is fit neither for the soil nor for the manure pile; it is thrown out. “Whoever has ears to hear, let them hear.”" - Luke 14:34-35
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Old 04-30-2012, 11:49 AM   #38 (permalink)
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I don't get into theological discussions on these forums because they usually wind down to people telling me how stupid and evil I am for being a Christian.
You're a true victim of your own success.
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Old 04-30-2012, 11:51 AM   #39 (permalink)
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I agree with what he said, and I've definitely said far worse things about how Evangelical Christianity has interpreted the Bible, pointing out the inevitable mistakes in trying to interpret literary works from a culture you barely understand in a language that you cannot read. There are a lot of laws in Leviticus, half of them have been completely inapplicable since the fall of the Second Temple in 70 CE since they involve Temple observance, and the rest are either very difficult to apply to modern society, or basic commonsense stuff along the lines of "if your ox kills your neighbors ass, you need to buy him a new one". And then you have the "If a man lies with another man as he lies with a woman, he shall be put to death". I'd say that it's as difficult to reconcile that with modern life as the law requiring that a child who slaps his parent be stoned to death.

The problem, though, is that it is likely to be almost impossible to convince Evangelical Christians that their beliefs are wrong or misguided. After all, what is the likelihood that an Evangelical could convince you to convert to Christianity? For some people, they might, but most people's religious beliefs or inability to believe are not likely to change. I'm not sure that challenging their religious beliefs is likely to result in change, but I'll admit that I've no clue of what tactic would be effective. I also know that I really have no business telling Savage not to be angry after what he's experienced, and I realize that suggesting that he be nicer might be every bit as ignorant as telling Black people to get over segregation.
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Old 04-30-2012, 12:12 PM   #40 (permalink)
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If you want to actually communicate with Christians about these issues, you do it in a way that respects their holy book. He went on a three minute rant about how the Bible justifies all sorts of social evils. It was his intent not to have a serious discussion, but to offend the Christians in the group and he got what he wanted. Clearly, he thinks the best way to reduce homophobia is by fighting a culture war.
There's no communicating with people who let a book do the thinking for them. Tiptoeing around the pearls they clutch only enables them. Sometimes, shocking people out of their stupor is the only way.

Also, never underestimate the power of one person speaking their truth.
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Old 04-30-2012, 12:20 PM   #41 (permalink)
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There's no communicating with people who let a book do the thinking for them. Tiptoeing around the pearls they clutch only enables them. Sometimes, shocking people out of their stupor is the only way.
Well then, there should be no criticism of the students who walked out. Savage wanted to offend and shock him, he did, they made their response. He wanted to express himself rather than communicating; they decided to express themselves rather than communicating; they are as entitled to do it as he is.

I have never said Savage had some duty to show any respect to anyone. But when he aims to show disrespect to someone, offending them is a natural consequence. And it's what he wanted to do anyway. Savage is no amateur speaker, he knows what he's doing.
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Old 04-30-2012, 12:21 PM   #42 (permalink)
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Poor babies.
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Old 04-30-2012, 12:22 PM   #43 (permalink)
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If he has soft sold it, would anyone have heard what he said? Maybe they will never hear anything but what they thought he said. Maybe they will think about it and realize Bible sanctioned homophobia needs to go the way of slavery, honor killings and witch burnings.
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Old 04-30-2012, 12:24 PM   #44 (permalink)
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Seriously; how will they cope? A stranger said something that could vaguely be confused as offensive — if you deliberately contort it and take the statement completely out of context in a concerted effort to be offended — about one of the largest religions in the world which wields political power unlike any political party ever has.

It's almost as if they've been relentlessly teased, harassed, violently attacked and murdered for being who they were. It's almost as if they have national laws on the ballots as we speak seeking to deny them rights because of their persecuted religious beliefs.

Poor martyred Christians. You really are the world's only downtrodden.
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Old 04-30-2012, 12:28 PM   #45 (permalink)
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"Dan Savage upsets Christian Students" is a dog-bites-man story.

FFS, of course he offended the Christian kids. He does that by merely existing.

Only Faux News could find that surprising or newsworthy.

"Dan Savage Upsets the LGBT Community" is the man-bites-dog story that's being completely ignored by the media.
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Old 04-30-2012, 12:30 PM   #46 (permalink)
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Well then, there should be no criticism of the students who walked out. Savage wanted to offend and shock him, he did, they made their response. He wanted to express himself rather than communicating; they decided to express themselves rather than communicating; they are as entitled to do it as he is.

I have never said Savage had some duty to show any respect to anyone. But when he aims to show disrespect to someone, offending them is a natural consequence. And it's what he wanted to do anyway. Savage is no amateur speaker, he knows what he's doing.
Honestly? So what if they were offended. Maybe that will give them empathy to know what it's like when a gay person is offended when they tell them that they're destined to burn in hell. Maybe one of them will have a light bulb moment and realize that using religion to hold others down is offensive on a much more massive scale.
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Old 04-30-2012, 12:32 PM   #47 (permalink)
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Columnist Dan Savage stands by comments on 'bulls**t in the Bible' – CNN Belief Blog - CNN.com Blogs
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Old 04-30-2012, 12:46 PM   #48 (permalink)
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I thought we were talking about the Bible?

The Bible, the Church (whichever one we happen to be talking about at the time), and the People are three very, very different things.

Being Christian doesn't make you stupid or evil, but it also doesn't mean that the Bible doesn't justify abhorrent social practices.
Failing to distinguish between yourself and ideas (or beliefs) however, is stupid.

And doing so intentionally just to score points in a debate could be considered evil.
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Old 04-30-2012, 12:48 PM   #49 (permalink)
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Well then, there should be no criticism of the students who walked out. Savage wanted to offend and shock him, he did, they made their response. He wanted to express himself rather than communicating; they decided to express themselves rather than communicating; they are as entitled to do it as he is.

I have never said Savage had some duty to show any respect to anyone. But when he aims to show disrespect to someone, offending them is a natural consequence. And it's what he wanted to do anyway. Savage is no amateur speaker, he knows what he's doing.
The reason why those kids were offended is because someone LIED to them and told them the bible is just fluffy bunnies and unicorns.


It's not.



"Men who have sex with other men shall be executed" is in the bible. Do you think that's bullshit or not?
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Old 04-30-2012, 12:52 PM   #50 (permalink)
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The reason why those kids were offended is because someone LIED to them and told them the bible is just fluffy bunnies and unicorns.
I find it hard to sympathize with someone who doesn't even know what's in their own holy book. Whether they were 'lied' to or not is immaterial, they should have read it themselves.
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