Shiloh Lyric

I don't understand the question. If it was the only treatment I could get, I would gratefully take it. However, I don't live in a third world country where unemployment is so high, and governments so oppressive, that healtcare is almost nonexistent. I live in a country where a universal, or even single-payer, healthcare system is attainable and should be in place.

Ignore what hospital policy? Do you mean treating patients against hospital regulations? Yes, that's what doctor's should do. If the hospital is telling them not to treat, the oath they took is telling them that they should. They knew that when they got into the profession.

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Beebo Brink DO NOT LINK THE CLUMP!!!

"There is no problem so large that it can't be solved by brute force and ignorance."
~Siggy Romulus (11/13/12)



http://shilohlyric.wordpress.com/

Jarod Godel

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/02/17/us...hospitals.html

Fox 32 - Community Shocked As Cheboygan Memorial Hospitals Closes Doors

Queens' Peninsula Hospital Closes Doors For Good - NY1.com

Hospital

Want me to find more?

Jarod Godel

Khamon, I see you lurking. You explain it. I apparently can't.

Chandra Masala

Jarod, you really need to just own up and admit that you think people shouldn't receive life saving treatments unless they can pay upfront first.

Jolene Benoir

Okay. I was wrong to say I dismissed you, That was quite rude of me. You giving it back to me..Okay, I deserved it.

But, you have yet to prove that any hospitals closed to due patient's not paying.

If i had my way this wouldh't even BE a problem, except for the odd occasional case.

I fear that your way to solve it is to dismiss people who cannot pay. I differ and strongly.

Jolene Benoir

None of those proved your point.

Khamon

I agree that medical records should never in any way be compromised to the collectors. Jarod has a valid point about doctors being sworn to provide treatment but having no power to insist that the laymen assist with equipment and supplies. The simple fact is that hospitals have no safety net. They operate under an unfunded mandate that doesn't provide any protection when the collectors take them to court. Two locally-owned hospitals in our town had to sell to a national corporation a few years ago. Their first action was to close and destroy one of the facilities.

Granted that we should provide global health care, to every US citizen, out of the tax base, what will that cost? I pay twenty-three-percent of my annual income for taxes, including Social Security and Medicare that'll likely never pay benefits to me; how much more do we need? Oh, I didn't include my family insurance premium, that brings it to twenty-seven percent. How much more do we need?

At least, whatever it costs, we can trust that a federally funded program, operated by elected politicians and bureaucrats, will meet all of our medical needs while treating us with dignity and respect.

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A Journey Through the World of Lever Harping

Jarod Godel

Then I concede my argument.

Amity Slade

I found a link to one of the training videos that the hospital debt collectors used.

Circle Widdershins

Why the mindset of:
Abide by the policy makers/private interest groups and exorbitant healthcare or you'll be facing a back alley and a dirty scalpel. Are they the only two options available to modern society?

I haven't ever experienced less than excellent hospital healthcare in Australia or the UK but in both countries I was never handed a bill *for anything*. Not tests, not surgery, not consultations.

These fear promoting arguments of back alleys and poor health care are one of the many reasons the US is still labouring under such an antiquated and punishing system. Some of the population seems to equate socialized (eeee the commies) medicine with 3rd world standards.

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Cristiano We need to make 'endless celestial sex' into a thing.

Myradyl

Interestingly, I travelled to an Emerg with so called 'heartburn', which in fact was a heart attack in progress. Three sets of tests were needed to prove that, as enzyme changes did not show up immediately. I very nearly was turned around and sent home, based on the first 'negative' test. Luckily I live in a place with universal health care and did not have collectors hounding me as I awaited news, in the Emerg waiting room. I am also a health professional, well aware of the systemic challenges that hospitals and health care institutions face.

As to treatment of the poor, homeless or dejected in some institutions, I've equally witnessed pejorative approaches that made some folks simply walk out in shame, without further assessment. Health care is more than just bills, equipment, tests, and technical skills; it's also about humanity and compassion.

Misty Harley

Oddly enough, it would be about the same amount that you are paying now, if not slightly less.

The cost for each person would not be much different then we are paying now.

The difference would be that the cost we are paying will go towards covering not just ourselves/immediate family but also those who do not have the means to pay themselves (and as greedy Americans who are only out for ourselves, we can't seem to grasp that concept of helping others when they are down) versus going into the pockets of the Health Care Industry. Who, by the way, had one of the highest profit margins that raised from year to year, including through the current recession.

Honestly, if we could get over the whole 'ZOMG I AM NOT PAYING FOR THAT LOSER, THEY SHOULD WORK TOO!" then things will change. Until that point....well....here's where we sit.

Pretty comfy doncha think? Well...that is if you have the health insurance or a low/no co-pay. If you don't have a low co-pay, expect to be harassed to pay before treatment if you should ever need it (and the cost the hospital charges may be a lot more then what the actual charge is....have fun getting that refunded back to you).

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Roxy Couturier

Medicare/Medicaid cuts actually cause more layoffs. As with any business, unpaid debts to that business are tax write-offs.

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Circle Widdershins

You know, to be perfectly honest, under a mostly socialized health care system it is actually individual self interest that keeps it going strong. I'm glad that people aren't dying or going bankrupt, of course, but the health cover of strangers isn't a big concern on a day to day basis. I don't care if the person next to me is temporarily out of work, a grifter or a merchant banker in terms of *my* taxes going towards *their* health cover.

The fact that I pay a comparatively low amount (compared to private health insurance) towards the public health scheme via taxes means that in the future, if me or my child needs it, it is there for *us*. And that gives me a huge peace of mind.

Misty Harley

It's just odd to me that those who are against the socialized heath care DO focus so much on 'covering those that don't cover themselves' versus what you said Circle.

My biggest concern would be going bankrupt or dieing because we couldn't afford the health care....covering those who can't cover themselves would just be a side benefit and not really a huge concern of mine either. If me and my family needed, it would be there for us.

Shiloh Lyric

You only pay 4% of your annual income for your insurance premium? Is that through your employer? You're actually very lucky with that premium, I hope you know. Here, where I am a temp so not even eligible for their health plan, the fulltime guys out on the shop floor gross about $600/wk. Their insurance premiums for family coverage (which includes medical and vision, but no dental) is $147/wk. When I do that math it comes out to a little over 20%. That's what mine will be, too, when/if I'm hired fulltime and have the option for the health plan.

Just making all medical records electronic would save the healthcare industry millions every year. Another huge expense for them, which could be avoided, would be misdiagnoses. They cost millions every year, also.

As for all of the examples provided by Jarod, from what I read, most if not all of them are not due to patients' inability to pay. The first is a mental hospital, which is different than what we are discussing. The 2nd doesn't give the reason that patients can't pay, but did serve a very small community so lack of patients could be the issue, it was in a couple of other's from your first google link. The 3rd was more due to health violations, and was pretty much shut down by the state. The 4th is a Woman's hospital which was first opened to compete with another healthcare facility, but that competition has diminished because the 2 facilities began working together.

By the way, the largest hospital in Lancaster County is opening a $44 million cancer center, in addition to all of it's other on-site and off-site facilities around the county, I would assume they must be makine some sort of profit to sustain that.

http://www.lancastergeneralhealth.or...-Hospital.aspx

All other local hospitals which I checked into are operating enough in the black to be offering new and innovative technologies and facilities. I don't know about the rest of the country, but healtcare facilities seem to be doing well in our area. Of course, if $600 is the standard fee to unblock someone's ear with warm soap and water, I can understand why. If I had known that was all it would take, I could have done it for a cost of about $5.00, which includes all overhead and my time to do it.

Jolene Benoir

Re: Your 2nd paragraph.

Wasn't it only about a month ago or so that it was posted in this forum the case of the homeless woman who was taken out of the emergency room to a jail, where she died alone on a concrete floor?

There's a HUGE bias within our medical system. No, I'm NOT indicting ALL medical professionals.

But, far too often, those who clearly lack the means to pay seem to be treated as 2nd class citizens. When that involves access to basic medical services, we really need to analyze our society. It's life or death in some situations.

Surreal

I got to this point at the Citizens United decision. Civilizations die. I feel like I've spent my entire adult life fighting a rear-guard action. It's time to make sure my own lifeboat is stocked.

Khamon

Well yes, countries that provide global health care still have private facilities and professionals working in the field to make a profit. We have public education in the US, but still maintain thousands of private institutions supported by people who don't want to use the public options, and who can afford to pay for both.

And I agree that harassing someone to pay a bill in an Emergency Room is shameful. But, like Jarod, I've seen a couple of local hospitals desperately trying to maintain their facilities while writing off steadily increasing receivables. The final option in our state capital was scheduling ER days that rotate on a schedule. People have to be evacuated to the open facility on any given day, sometimes clear across the county, to receive care.

Yes I know I'm lucky to have a low premium because my employer pays the balance. That firm is the State of Alabama so I essentially am covered by a tax-funded option. And I've no problem extending that arrangement, through the state government, to everyone here. But considering the gross mismanagement of existing federal programs such as Medicare, the Pentagon, the Postal Service, Social Security, and the IRS that collects the taxes to pay for these, I find it difficult to believe that Federal Government can provide global care for less money than the private sector manage.

Surreal

How about we look at any of the different ways in which the entire rest of the developed world does it and pick the best one. I favor the Australian plan myself.

Surreal

The U.S. Postal Service | Need to Know | PBS

Khamon

It isn't tax funded now because it failed as a federal program and had to be privatized. Thank goodness affordable alternatives exist if USPS goes under entirely. This is priceless "when postage stamps became “products” instead of forms of taxation."

Jolene Benoir

Say what you want about our postal system, but if it was run like how we run healthcare?

They would deliver your mail, ONLY if it was a certified letter. All other mail would need to be prepaid.
If you couldn't pay, it would go on your credit history.
People would go bankrupt when paying their mail bill.

Khamon

USPS does only deliver mail if it's prepaid. The service is under no mandate to deliver mail without prepaid postage. If I did run a tab, and not pay the bill, I'm pretty sure it'd be reported on my credit history. I won't argue that medical costs in the US are grossly inflated. But I blame that on the insurance cabal rather than hospitals.

Jolene Benoir

I wasn't speaking of the sender, but the recipient. Probably not the best example, because, as you pointed out it IS prepaid by the sender.

I'm with you regarding insurance companies.