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Chalice Yao · 04-24-2012, 11:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cindy Claveau

Chalice was speaking to the primitive mammalian tendency during copulation, more so than social inhibition.

Sex drive comes from the reptilian part of our brains. Social bonds center more in our Neocortex.

Mmmhmhyup. My point was that Teh Horny makes the reptilian brain go apeshit while the neocortex acts likes a bribed referee.

Jahar Aabye · 04-24-2012, 11:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chalice Yao

What Kalel's saying isn't even that far off.
Sexual arousal and acts make our reptilian brain actually become more dominating in our thought processes. We literally dumb down while instinct becomes more overwhelming.

Pretty much, yeah. Research in...can't remember if it was chimps or macaque monkeys....demonstrated that seeing an attrective member of the opposite sex leads to a surge in dopamine levels. Dopamine isn't so much a "pleasure" signal as it is an "anticipation" signal. In some regions of the brain, in the prefrontal cortex, it is involved in attention and impulse control and other executive functions. In other regions, however, such as the nucleus accumbens, if I remember correctly, it mediates the motivation and reward systems.

So yeah, the thought of sex pretty much can derail one's attention, motivation, and anticipation of reward towards activities likely to get you laid. Especially when those signals are stronger than the similar dopamine signals telling you to get back to work.

Oddly enough, though, this does involve prefrontal regions that we might think of as "higher" areas of the brain, although I'm not sure whether they are involved or simply are short-circuited. After all, those regions are involved in impulse-control as well, songoing around them or overriding them is obviously an important part of reckless behavior like this.

And yeah, obviously sexual arousal has to be able to override all other impulses, else we'd not be nearly as numerous a species. Especially since we don't have a specific mating season.

This is going to happen regardless of the society or culture, society and culture are only going to influence the extent to which it is tolerated and the extent to which one or both genders engage in this behavior (and stupid decisions influenced by sex are not solely a male phenomenon).

**Beebo Brink** · 04-24-2012, 11:52 AM

Tangentially related to this is an observation that Mrs. Beebo and I have made after watching countless COPS shows (and their clones). What we see repeatedly is people acting on impulse, completely disregarding the most basic logical conclusion of what they're doing: Get stopped for a traffice violation and pay a ticket vs. wreaking mayhem by trying to escape the police and ending up with felony convictions. Reason and prediction don't come into play, just a fight-flight impulse.

When you hear the description of events from the perp's perspective, there is a common thread of "things just knda happen." We listened to a serial killer describe his first killing with "and then the knife entered her back" as if he had nothing to do with it. Urges and impulses take them down dark paths, often times without any conscious volition; they're just riding along in the back seat, watching the scenery go by.

I'm willing to bet that the best predictor of ending up in jail versus acheving societally approved success is closely tied with impulse control. People who have it can defer gratification, can make more judicious choices, and people who give in to impulse (or are unable to control it), end up in trouble over and over again.

But even if some people are better at overriding impulses than others, it's the rare person who has complete and utter control over that reptilian brain.

**Beebo Brink** · 04-24-2012, 12:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jahar Aabye

Oddly enough, though, this does involve prefrontal regions that we might think of as "higher" areas of the brain, although I'm not sure whether they are involved or simply are short-circuited. After all, those regions are involved in impulse-control as well, songoing around them or overriding them is obviously an important part of reckless behavior like this.

I suspect that the prefontal activity is focused on finding a rationale to support the impulse. The urge is there, at some level the intellectual layer recognizes that this is a bad idea, but when it can't make the urge go away, the pressure to comply builds until the brain conjures a way to legitimize fulfillment of the desire. Thus the old adage: "It seemed like a good idea at the time."

Jahar Aabye · 04-24-2012, 12:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Beebo Brink

I'm willing to bet that the best predictor of ending up in jail versus acheving societally approved success is closely tied with impulse control. People who have it can defer gratification, can make more judicious choices, and people who give in to impulse (or are unable to control it), end up in trouble over and over again.

Absolutely. I don't know if there are studies specifically looking at impulse control, but studies looking at mental illness in prisons certainly found a higj rate of conditions associated with poor impulse control, and other studies have found that of the general population of people with those conditions, impulse control problems were correlated with incarceration (ADHD with comorbid conduct disorder being one of the greatest risks).

Psychiatric disorders in detained male adol... [Can J Psychiatry. 2010] - PubMed - NCBI

A prospective study of hy... [J Am Acad Child Adolesc Psychiatry. 1997] - PubMed - NCBI

Quote:

Hyperactive subjects had significantly higher juvenile (46% versus 11%) and adult (21% versus 1%) arrest rates. Juvenile and adult incarceration rates were also significantly higher. Childhood conduct problems predicted later criminality, and serious antisocial behavior in adolescence predicted adult criminality.

(that probably makes more sense in relation to the topic when you know that thr hyperactivity diagnostic criteria are actually hyperactivity/impulsivity in the DSM)

A 30-year prospective fol... [J Am Acad Child Adolesc Psychiatry. 2007] - PubMed - NCBI

Hell, even among drug addicts, impulse control makes a rather significant contribution to the risk of incarceration

Factors related to correctional facility... [Drug Alcohol Depend. 2008] - PubMed - NCBI

And interestingly enough, it may even be a slightly greater problemnfor women than men:

Comorbid psychiatric disorders in youth ... [Arch Gen Psychiatry. 2003] - PubMed - NCBI

Tyabela · 04-24-2012, 01:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cindy Claveau

When you have two heads, sometimes it's hard to know which one you should listen to.

Too often, men just think with the wrong head.

That thought always make me think of a southern way of referring to the Civil War.

"That recent unpleasantness between the North and the South"
(just stick the word head after North and South and you got it)

Isabeau Imako · 04-24-2012, 02:10 PM

I really dislike it when we make men out to be idiots who aren't able to help the way they act because of poor (male) impulse control. What a crock of ... I simply know way too many smart, responsible, and wise men to believe this.

I don't think men are any less (or any more) able to control their reptilian brain than women are. By saying this, it lowers our expectations to the point that when a man does behave in a conscientious, or ordinarily responsible manner, he is lauded.

You see this in ads all the time.

''Gee, I'm a man, I'm so stupid, hur hur hur. Please don't be too harsh with me, I can't help myself.'' Walks away with knuckles dragging...

Chalice Yao · 04-24-2012, 02:25 PM

Oh, I don't think anybody was limiting the discussion about the reptilian brain to men at all. it's how both genders work when it hits.

**Cindy Claveau** · 04-24-2012, 02:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Isabeau Imako

I really dislike it when we make men out to be idiots who aren't able to help the way they act because of poor (male) impulse control. What a crock of ... I simply know way too many smart, responsible, and wise men to believe this.

I don't think men are any less (or any more) able to control their reptilian brain than women are. By saying this, it lowers our expectations to the point that when a man does behave in a conscientious, or ordinarily responsible manner, he is lauded.

I know a lot of smart, responsible men, too. Including the guy I married. But that doesn't argue against the fact that men are culturally and biologically indoctrinated to be aggressive in sex and career. This does lead to more men than women being caught cheating on their spouses.

Women cheat, too. But to throw out a generalization I think has some validity here: most men cheat because they're tempted (power, lust, forbidden fruit) while most women cheat because they're unsatisfied with their marriage. Like most generalizations we can go round and round forever on exceptions to that statement, but I think it holds up more often than not.

**Aliselia Aeon** · 04-24-2012, 02:34 PM

I think that our culture tends teach it's children that men don't have to control themselves as much as women do. Yes, we all have that nasty reptilian brain thing going on, but it doesn't have to control us.

**Aliselia Aeon** · 04-24-2012, 02:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Isabeau Imako

I really dislike it when we make men out to be idiots who aren't able to help the way they act because of poor (male) impulse control. What a crock of ... I simply know way too many smart, responsible, and wise men to believe this.

I don't think men are any less (or any more) able to control their reptilian brain than women are. By saying this, it lowers our expectations to the point that when a man does behave in a conscientious, or ordinarily responsible manner, he is lauded.

You see this in ads all the time.

''Gee, I'm a man, I'm so stupid, hur hur hur. Please don't be too harsh with me, I can't help myself.'' Walks away with knuckles dragging...

And women are often depicted as conniving, controlling and often shallow. That isn't any more true than the other.

**Cindy Claveau** · 04-24-2012, 02:39 PM

I don't think rape is the result of cultural indoctrination. But vastly more men commit rape than women.

It's an example on the extreme end of the gender bell curve that I think is an indicator of more prevalent tendencies.

**Aliselia Aeon** · 04-24-2012, 02:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cindy Claveau

I don't think rape is the result of cultural indoctrination. But vastly more men commit rape than women.

It's an example on the extreme end of the gender bell curve that I think is an indicator of more prevalent tendencies.

I wasn't referring to rape. I was referring to the subject addressed in the opening post. Rape is an entirely different subject.

Isabeau Imako · 04-24-2012, 02:42 PM

I agree that stupidity comes out differently in different people, but I just think society seems to be more accepting when it comes to men's 'stupidity' in the roles of fathers, lovers, friends, etc As in, 'they can't help themselves'. If I were a guy, I would find this to be insulting.

We are what we are expected to be.

Isabeau Imako · 04-24-2012, 02:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aliselia Aeon

And women are often depicted as conniving, controlling and often shallow. That isn't any more true than the other.

Yes, and also as superior when it comes to morals...

**Cindy Claveau** · 04-24-2012, 03:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aliselia Aeon

I wasn't referring to rape. I was referring to the subject addressed in the opening post. Rape is an entirely different subject.

Is it? The point has been raised here that men's (alleged) "stupidity" stems from the power of their reptile brain - the same brain that makes them more predatory than women. The same predation that leads them to rape and abuse more than women.

I think there's a legit connection, myself.

**Beebo Brink** · 04-24-2012, 03:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chalice Yao

Oh, I don't think anybody was limiting the discussion about the reptilian brain to men at all. it's how both genders work when it hits.

Without going into details, I'll just say that I have made more than my fair share of mistakes in my life (but fortunately not paid an exceptionally high price for them....at least not yet). Looking back at a distance from those actions, I can say "Wtf was I thinking?" and yet I'm all too aware that no matter how many lessons I should have learned, there are certain circumstances that trip me up every time. My brain screams and yells and groans, but some other deeper emotional well of impulses just charges right ahead. All that experience has taught me is to recognize the symptoms so I can wince in anticipation of the dive off a cliff.

Isabeau Imako · 04-24-2012, 03:57 PM

I would think that, the manner in which a person (man or woman) loses control is not the same as one being less capable of controling oneself.

So yes, men are usually considered to be more violent when they show lack of self-control, but do they really have less control of themselves than women?

Phoebe Avro · 04-24-2012, 04:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ann Otoole

Question: Are men stupid?
Answer: Yes.

Done.

See the thing is once upon a time they could get away with shit because the standards were relaxed too far. But the restrictions on something called *DATA MASK - RELEASE* have tightened up. Only for the real pros now. The fuckwads will be eliminated.

mmh 99.9% are, I know a few of the 1% that are not ^^

bubblesort · 04-24-2012, 04:07 PM

People are stupid for all kinds of reasons but I don't think having sex is stupid at all.

Society seems to have this idea that we should control ourselves and not have consensual sex when we want to because it's dirty. It's our uncontrollable impulses from our primal brains that make us want to do evil things like have sex, right? That's bullshit. Having sex is not bad. I'm surprised there aren't more sex positive people in this forum.

Now, deception, that is bad. You shouldn't lie about sex any more than you should lie about anything else. If these men tell their wives that they are being monogamous when they cheat then that is wrong. If they had open relationships and were honest with each other about it then there is nothing wrong with that. This is an issue between the men and their wives, not between the men and society.

Plus, the women they sleep with... you think they don't know what they are doing? You can't sleep with a major political figure like John Edwards without knowing who he is. The mistress did the same thing Edwards did, she just didn't necessarily directly lie to Edward's wife about it. I'm not saying the mistresses deserve all the blame (or any blame), I'm just saying that they were part of the situation as well. They were just not necessarily dishonest about it.

Like I said, having sex is not stupid, however: If you want to call men stupid for having sex then you should also call the mistresses stupid or else you're being a hypocrite.

**Beebo Brink** · 04-24-2012, 04:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Isabeau Imako

I would think that, the manner in which a person (man or woman) loses control is not the same as one being less capable of controling oneself.

So yes, men are usually considered to be more violent when they show lack of self-control, but do they really have less control of themselves than women?

I think the divide is between people with weak versus strong impulse control, not between men and women. It's just that men with weak impulse control tend to be more dangerous than women with that failing.

We can attribute that weakness to moral failure, and in some case it may well be that a person simply doesn't want to "behave" and has no overwhelming motivation to do so. But there are also people who have a compromised ability to control behavior. Malnutrition, fetal alcohol syndrome, brain damage -- there are so many possible sources that create neuroligical damage.

I also think we tend to dismiss self-destructive behavior from powerful men as "simply" giving in to sexual desire, when the truth is that emotional needs are almost always intertwined with sex. We recognize that duality in women but dismiss it in men, which I think does them a disservice. The emotional validation and comfort that men can derive from sex and the perception of being powerful, desirable, is also a very very powerful attraction and may be part of what derails their thought process, as much if not more than "getting some."

Sid Nagy · 04-24-2012, 04:11 PM

See how smart we can be:
Notice how many men keep out of this discussion.

Phoebe Avro · 04-24-2012, 04:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Loraan Fierrens

I'm no psychologist, but it strikes me that one possible factor is what Jung called the "Shadow." In Jungian psychology, the Shadow is an archetype (and one of the major ones at that), which represents those things we repress into the sub-conscious which we find uncomfortable, unpleasant, horrifying, or just undesired about ourselves. The Shadow is that of ourselves which we most wish to deny. One of the aspects of the Shadow, however, is that it must be faced or it can start to take over, directing our actions in ways we can't (consciously) explain.

I think we see this over-and-over... the anti-gay politician who gets caught at a gay bar, the clean "family values" preacher who gets caught with the prostitute, even the perfectly ordinary married man who sabotages his marriage through some completely stupid affair or what-have-you.

I do not think it is stupidity as such but more a sort of insanity. One is no longer oneself, in a sense. Although it might be more accurate to say one was never truly oneself and that the other aspects of the self have erupted out into the world in an uncontrolled fashion... in a fashion that wouldn't have happened if the Shadow had been faced.

The case i'm most struck by was an Indiana politician who last year was involved in a scandal concerning a young man, a hotel room, Craigslist, and... well... you can fill in the blanks. It's nothing you haven't heard or read a dozen times already. What interested me was when I saw an interview with the man a few days later. The reporter pressed him on what he thought he was doing. His reply was telling, he basically admitted he couldn't explain it himself. To me, that was a classic case of the Shadow taking over... if you can't bear to look into your Shadow, you're not going to be able to acknowledge those drives.

Anyway, I don't know if that's useful or not. I've gotten very interested in Jungian psychology recently, and as they say when all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail.

Bang bang bang!

I have always thought Jung was underestimated, from what I have read and from my own point of view I have never understood the rave about Freud myself!

Aribeth Zelin · 04-24-2012, 04:31 PM

The article is operating one some false premises. For example, one of the First Ladies was known to have had a mistress living in the White House - it just wasn't spoken about. People didn't normally used to care whether men [and women] had affairs so long as they were discreet and no one was hurt in the process [Like Julia Howe].

And people knew Kennedy had affairs - they weren't really that secret. The abuse of his power to coerce them is a different story, of course, but if they were consenting adults? Who cares. And Jackie had at least one affair, basically to say 'If you can, I can too'.

In Victorian times, which wasn't really that long ago, temporally speaking, women would usually become mistresses of more socially powerful men - to help advance their families [and husbands' careers!]. And that was prudish England.

The idea its only a man thing, or that its some new thing that men in power [and not!] are having affairs and such, seems foolish and perpetrates certain fallacies in logic.

Now, to have affairs and not make sure any resulting children aren't cared for, or that people aren't hurt, that's stupid - but its not just a male stupidity.

Kalel · 04-24-2012, 04:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Isabeau Imako

As in, 'they can't help themselves'. If I were a guy, I would find this to be insulting.

I've had thought about this several times, watching the TV, watching some of the stuff my own father has done... Tho i'm not crazy enough to change gender..sometime i wonder why i bother exist...

O well..

04-24-2012, 11:52 AM	#28 (permalink)
Beebo Brink Senior Curmudgeon *SLU Supporter* I'm the woman your mother warned you about. Join Date: Jul 2007 Posts: 13,611 My Mood: SL Join Date: October 2006 Business: Brazen Women Shapes and Skins Client: v3 + Starlight	Tangentially related to this is an observation that Mrs. Beebo and I have made after watching countless COPS shows (and their clones). What we see repeatedly is people acting on impulse, completely disregarding the most basic logical conclusion of what they're doing: Get stopped for a traffice violation and pay a ticket vs. wreaking mayhem by trying to escape the police and ending up with felony convictions. Reason and prediction don't come into play, just a fight-flight impulse. When you hear the description of events from the perp's perspective, there is a common thread of "things just knda happen." We listened to a serial killer describe his first killing with "and then the knife entered her back" as if he had nothing to do with it. Urges and impulses take them down dark paths, often times without any conscious volition; they're just riding along in the back seat, watching the scenery go by. I'm willing to bet that the best predictor of ending up in jail versus acheving societally approved success is closely tied with impulse control. People who have it can defer gratification, can make more judicious choices, and people who give in to impulse (or are unable to control it), end up in trouble over and over again. But even if some people are better at overriding impulses than others, it's the rare person who has complete and utter control over that reptilian brain. __________________ Noob: "okay.... im in a house with cages and people in gags and the door just locked and i cant get out :c"

04-24-2012, 02:34 PM	#35 (permalink)
Aliselia Aeon Senior Member *SLU Supporter* Stolen Child Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: Here Posts: 12,507 My Mood: SL Join Date: October 27, 2007 Client: at the moment, Nirans Blog Entries: 3	I think that our culture tends teach it's children that men don't have to control themselves as much as women do. Yes, we all have that nasty reptilian brain thing going on, but it doesn't have to control us. __________________ "Push 100cc of Social Skills, stat!" ~Casey Pelous

04-24-2012, 04:31 PM	#49 (permalink)
Aribeth Zelin Just call me Beth Singing along with old music Join Date: Mar 2011 Location: Out in the mists Posts: 5,720 My Mood: SL Join Date: Oct 4 2009 Business: Faerycat Designs Client: Firestorm	The article is operating one some false premises. For example, one of the First Ladies was known to have had a mistress living in the White House - it just wasn't spoken about. People didn't normally used to care whether men [and women] had affairs so long as they were discreet and no one was hurt in the process [Like Julia Howe]. And people knew Kennedy had affairs - they weren't really that secret. The abuse of his power to coerce them is a different story, of course, but if they were consenting adults? Who cares. And Jackie had at least one affair, basically to say 'If you can, I can too'. In Victorian times, which wasn't really that long ago, temporally speaking, women would usually become mistresses of more socially powerful men - to help advance their families [and husbands' careers!]. And that was prudish England. The idea its only a man thing, or that its some new thing that men in power [and not!] are having affairs and such, seems foolish and perpetrates certain fallacies in logic. Now, to have affairs and not make sure any resulting children aren't cared for, or that people aren't hurt, that's stupid - but its not just a male stupidity. __________________ Faerycat Designs In World -Marketplace 1- Marketplace 2

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04-24-2012, 02:10 PM	#32 (permalink)
Isabeau Imako Rhâââ.... Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: Montréal Posts: 6,242	I really dislike it when we make men out to be idiots who aren't able to help the way they act because of poor (male) impulse control. What a crock of ... I simply know way too many smart, responsible, and wise men to believe this. I don't think men are any less (or any more) able to control their reptilian brain than women are. By saying this, it lowers our expectations to the point that when a man does behave in a conscientious, or ordinarily responsible manner, he is lauded. You see this in ads all the time. ''Gee, I'm a man, I'm so stupid, hur hur hur. Please don't be too harsh with me, I can't help myself.'' Walks away with knuckles dragging...

04-24-2012, 02:25 PM	#33 (permalink)
Chalice Yao The Purple HEYOO! Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Somewhere purple, Germany Posts: 7,648 My Mood: SL Join Date: 20. January 2007 Client: NaCl	Oh, I don't think anybody was limiting the discussion about the reptilian brain to men at all. it's how both genders work when it hits.

04-24-2012, 02:39 PM	#37 (permalink)
Cindy Claveau E=mc^(OMG)/wtf *SLU Supporter* Free's Sister Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Brownbackistan Posts: 27,439 My Mood: SL Join Date: May, 2005 Client: Firestorm Blog Entries: 16 Awards: 2	I don't think rape is the result of cultural indoctrination. But vastly more men commit rape than women. It's an example on the extreme end of the gender bell curve that I think is an indicator of more prevalent tendencies.

04-24-2012, 02:42 PM	#39 (permalink)
Isabeau Imako Rhâââ.... Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: Montréal Posts: 6,242	I agree that stupidity comes out differently in different people, but I just think society seems to be more accepting when it comes to men's 'stupidity' in the roles of fathers, lovers, friends, etc As in, 'they can't help themselves'. If I were a guy, I would find this to be insulting. We are what we are expected to be.

04-24-2012, 03:57 PM	#43 (permalink)
Isabeau Imako Rhâââ.... Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: Montréal Posts: 6,242	I would think that, the manner in which a person (man or woman) loses control is not the same as one being less capable of controling oneself. So yes, men are usually considered to be more violent when they show lack of self-control, but do they really have less control of themselves than women?

04-24-2012, 04:07 PM	#45 (permalink)
bubblesort Banned Join Date: Mar 2011 Location: Pennsylvania Posts: 1,213 SL Join Date: Jan 2007	People are stupid for all kinds of reasons but I don't think having sex is stupid at all. Society seems to have this idea that we should control ourselves and not have consensual sex when we want to because it's dirty. It's our uncontrollable impulses from our primal brains that make us want to do evil things like have sex, right? That's bullshit. Having sex is not bad. I'm surprised there aren't more sex positive people in this forum. Now, deception, that is bad. You shouldn't lie about sex any more than you should lie about anything else. If these men tell their wives that they are being monogamous when they cheat then that is wrong. If they had open relationships and were honest with each other about it then there is nothing wrong with that. This is an issue between the men and their wives, not between the men and society. Plus, the women they sleep with... you think they don't know what they are doing? You can't sleep with a major political figure like John Edwards without knowing who he is. The mistress did the same thing Edwards did, she just didn't necessarily directly lie to Edward's wife about it. I'm not saying the mistresses deserve all the blame (or any blame), I'm just saying that they were part of the situation as well. They were just not necessarily dishonest about it. Like I said, having sex is not stupid, however: If you want to call men stupid for having sex then you should also call the mistresses stupid or else you're being a hypocrite.

04-24-2012, 04:11 PM	#47 (permalink)
Sid Nagy Just another Muppet. *SLU Supporter* Well,well. Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 2,939	See how smart we can be: Notice how many men keep out of this discussion.

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