Lucifer Baphomet

And they continue to use torture, extra-judicial killings, have introduced the death penalty for the "crime" of homosexuality.

Amnesty International | Working to Protect Human Rights

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Lucifer Baphomet

BTW, don't get me wrong, I'd love to see an end to the LRA.

I'd also love to see an end to Musuveni's regime though.

Nibb Tardis

If he's not in Uganda, there's nothing the Ugandan military can do about it without invading a foreign country. What don't you get about that?

Cajsa Lilliehook

A friend of mine wrote a book called Twilight of Impunity about the war crimes trial of Slobodan Milosevic. Her partner is one of my closest friends. They lived in Yugoslavia under Milosevic. She gathered depositions documenting war crimes in hopes of an eventual war crimes trial and my friend wrote for an underground newspaper and worked as an organizer for the Women in Black. She monitored and reported on the trial and was disappointed that he died before there was a verdict. Like many, she believes the idea of impunity for leaders is dangerous and that these trials are critical to inducing better leadership in the future.

Certainly, I think if Richard Nixon had not been pardoned, we would not have had Iran Contra and if Iran Contra had been fully prosecuted, we would not have had Cheney and the manufactured war on Iraq. Criminal leadership that is unpunished breeds more criminal leadership. For that reason, I think the argument that he's not as important and powerful as he once was is a bad one. So what? Should he have impunity and show other warlords and thugs that if you last long enough to become less relevant that you can get away with it?

He should be arrested and tried for war crimes. So should a lot of people. That we don't arrest all that we should does not mean we should not arrest those that we can. No, I don't know if this is the best strategy, but I don't have patience for any apologists for Kony. Is he the worst in the world? I don't know, but does anyone take seriously any suggestion that we can never tackle any problem unless we tackle the worst first?

Ishina

Even if it was true that there is nothing an organised and well equipped army could do except invasion (which, obviously, isn't true), I never actually specified the military in my post. Uganda is intimately caught up in this and is obliged to assist in any way it can. To not pool efforts with such an involved party is just plain stupid.

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Asher Bertrand

Meanwhile, send us $30 for this bracelet. That's why.

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Ishina

^ A.K.A: tl;dr, but want to be funny

Void

While I don't agree with Richies posted pictoral, I find the argument agaisnt doing anything "because it's not in our strategic interest" (whether it's the OP campaign or anything else) to be plain silly...

You help someone out, they owe you... in the case of nations there are plenty of ways to bank on that, even dirt poor ones. The key to doing that is promoting stability. So it's simple, back whomever is promoting stability, they get what they want, you get to reap the rewards with them.

Is Invisible Chidren using hyperbole and emotional arguments to increase their exposure? of course they are; show me a cause that doesn't and I'll show you one that's failing. That doesn't make their cause incorrect by itself. Top down only solutions for improvement don't work any better than bottom up only ones, both are required to be effective.... we've had plenty of top down solutions proposed and even running in the region, but they're always erroded by the bottom percentage, and this org just happens to be representing a bottom up solution that's been missing.

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Nibb Tardis

African armies are generally hardly more than a bunch of thugs with AK47s and pick-up trucks. They are not organized and well-equipped.

I'm not sure what you're suggesting. I don't know what kind of relations Uganda has with its neighbours. At any rate, international law does not allow armies to cross borders to catch criminals.
"Uganda" is a bunch of thugs. Supporting their military, even if the cause seems just, can be counter-productive by sending the wrong signal to the Ugandan government and also to neighbouring governments and factions. Diplomacy is complicated stuff. In Africa, it can be mind-boggling.

Asher Bertrand

Here's my concern.

The organization brought in $13,765,180 last year (the link takes you to their IRS 990 form. You might need to set up a Guidestar account to see it, but that's free). Of that, $8,894,632 was spent, and of that, was$4,664,352 was spent on salaries, benefits and payroll taxes, travel expenses, film making costs, licenses and fees and postage. That's 52.4 percent of what they brought in. Which is OK if you do believe that a film is going to change the situation. I'm skeptical. I think there are other organizations that do more to help the actual people in need.

Ishina

It's not particularly fruitful to characterise it as such, nor very accurate. One can make valid and objective criticism about Uganda's human rights record and whatnot without turning it into a cartoon.

Cajsa Lilliehook

Well, the film certainly has raised awareness of the situation from almost global ignorance to nearly global superficial concern. Whether that concern deepens to something that can make change is a question only answerable by time.

However, direct aid is not always the superior moral position and not always the most effective. For example, consider the issue of hunger. Many people's response to hunger is to give to a food bank and certainly that is a good thing. However, did you know that when people on public assistance receive food from a food bank, the value of that food is considered income and reduces their food stamp and other benefits - though seldom dollar for dollar? Most food banks limit how much is given and it's never supposed to be all the food a family needs, but merely a supplement to the family's food resources. That is direct aid, but it is not enough and never will be and is not designed to be enough. But when you look at their financials - you will be so pleased that they are giving so much in direct aid.

However, the organization that organizes poor people to lobby and speak out about barriers to food stamps so that the rules are changed and more people actually get the food stamps and dramatically increases access to food will have financial statements that have no direct aid and almost nothing but staff expenses. So in essence, the more effective and successful long, term approach is less worthy by the pernicious idea that direct aid is morally superior to the work that makes a bigger difference.

I admit I have concerns about the strategy that they advocate and don't know the answer, but I do know that the more I see people making this phony, diversionary argument about finances and direct aid, the less credibility I award their critics. If the issue is the strategy, argue strategy and don't put up smokescreens about the financials. It's just an demonstration of not understanding organizing and that not all work is direct aid.

ps. 4,664,353/13,765,180 is 33.9% not 52.4

Tyabela

I am with you to a point.It can be a diversionary tactic but it isn't always. There is never anything wrong with a charitably minded person doing some research on the organizations they are considering donating to.

I can't remember which fund it was at this point but I seem to remember hearing about one of these sponsor a child type organizations that over 80% of money donated went to "administrative costs" and never helped the kids directly.

Different people might think that is an ok percentage. As someone who does donate to charities I would go shopping for a different fund where more of what I donated actually went to help the kids.

Asher Bertrand

Yes, I corrected it to reflect the percentage of the money spent last year, not the percentage of the money taken in.

Cajsa Lilliehook

Yes, but Feed the Children were soliciting donations to pay for direct aid. So they should have been providing direct aid. They were dishonest. And yes, only 20% of funds went to program.

This organization has under 20% admin and fundraising costs. 80% is spent on program expenses. The critics are trying to bamboozle you into thinking their program costs are too low by trying to imply that staff costs are not program costs and counting only direct aid/transfers as legitimate costs. That is untrue, misleading and really dishonest on every level - most particularly since this organization's mission is not direct aid.

This organization's admin costs and fundraising costs are reasonable by every standard and these critics are trying to confuse and mislead and are fundamentally dishonest. They disagree about strategy and mission and are trying to conflate that with implied corruption, innurement and mismanagement. That is a dishonest critique which makes me inclined to believe they are equally dishonest and reckless in their other criticism. I mean, if they lie and mislead about a major criticism, why would they not lie about others?

Tyabela

Agreed I guess I did not articulate well. I was merely pointing out that there is no crime in checking numbers for oneself.

There has been a history of shady organizations. God knows we dealt with enough of em down here after Katrina. Never hurts to check.

Lucifer Baphomet

I'm glad that the west is motivated to stop Kony.

Now we can save those kids from abuse, torture, rape, being killed by the LRA, so instead, they can be abused, tortured, raped and killed by the Musuveni regime.

Job well done.

Cajsa Lilliehook

While you may be correct in noting that the current regime is a grim alternative, it is worthwhile to note that it is easier to bring influence and pressure to bear on state actors such as the Mesuveni regime than on non-state actors like the LRA. Sanctions, aid in exchange for policy changes and other strategies are possible with bad state actors, but less so with non-state actors with whom diplomacy is inherently difficult.

Besides, this argument is more a less the two wrongs make a right argument in that the badness of Musuveni is used to cancel out the badness of Kony to advance a do nothing strategy.

Richie Waves

The Fellowship, through Representative Joe Pitts (R.-Pa.), redirected millions in US aid to Uganda from sex education programs to abstinence programs, thereby causing an evangelical revival, which included condom burnings. (from wiki)

Io Zeno

Wow, it kinda sounds like this other crazy place.... what was the name.... oh, yeah, AFGHANISTAN.

Only a nutter would get involved with that shit, heh.

Meanwhile..... in the Middle East.... you know that place the EU gets most of it's oil? Shit is happening, like now?

Lucifer Baphomet

And what about the rape. torture, murder and use of child soldiers in Somalia, or the Congo?

This shit happens all over Africa, and even rolling in with serious force, and dealing with all the sides in these conflicts, nothing will change. It'll just start over in an endless cycle.

Post colonial Africa is set up to fail, with national boundaries that don't reflect tribal and ethnic divisions...

With enduring hatreds often promoted by the old colonial powers (Rwanda being an excellent case in point of a manufactured tribal hatred).

There are no easy answers to any of this...

And even attempting to sort them, and I mean really sort them, would make Vietnam and Iraq look like fucking holiday camps.

Ishina

Well, at least you've found a way to justify inaction, if nothing else.

Cajsa Lilliehook

I freely admit not knowing the answers. I also think the Ugandan government is pretty appalling and have seen and read much about the influence of rightwing evangelicals on Uganda, most particularly the Fellowship. It's complicated and full of pitfalls, but the majority of the developed world seems to want to advocate shutting our eyes and hoping they will just all kill each other off until there's no one left to fight.

In early 2006, I was asked by the World Affairs Forum to meet with a delegation of about 20 men and women from DR Congo to provide training in voter outreach and mobilization prior to their first election in decades. One thing that many of the delegates said is that western indifference allowed their oppression to continue. Perhaps they were saying what they think we want to hear. I don't know.

Alazarin

So is this the answer?



I know that Kony guy and his gang are a nasty piece of work but intervention is never as easy in reality as it is on paper. Never mind the logistical problems of setting up a hit like that. In reality you'd have to deal with the aftermath: neutralising / pacifying the loyalists as well as deprogramming and reintegrating the child soldiers back into society and all that goes with it.
You wouldn't get it over with in a day and be home in time for a quick pint in the pub after supper.

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Lum Lumley

So, here's a radical concept. Why not check with, you know, the people who are there. What does an independent reporter from Uganda who's been covering the LRA for years think about all this?

Acholi Street. Stop #Kony2012. Invisible Children’s campaign of infamy « Angelo Opi-aiya Izama

Oh.

(edit: the Guardian article linked upthread linked to this as well and also had an addendum from the author)

Uganda has a history of intervening in the Congo (called "DRC" above) and was a key combatant in the Congo War, the deadliest war ever fought in Africa, which was also fought mainly for the right to loot the place. Same old same old.