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Old 02-29-2012, 09:23 AM   #26 (permalink)
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I heard the reports of bullying, too, but the AP is reporting this:

Source. I would expect that from the Defense, not the Prosecutor.
Yeah, that's one of the points made in the article in the OP, where he points out that the Columbine shooters weren't bullied. Similarly, the Virginia Tech shooter may have been bullied as a child, but didn't seem to face any bullying while enrolled there. Don't get me wrong, sometimes bullying can lead to violence, but a lot of kids who are bullied are chosen because they are seen as unlikely to fight back...whereas a lot of these school shooters seem to have had serious psychiatric issues that were known but generally untreated or undertreated, and I think a lot of bullies are hesitant to pick on those kids.
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Old 02-29-2012, 10:41 AM   #27 (permalink)
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On the other hand, there are things that can be done for children with mental illnesses. And doing so would not only help prevent school shootings, but also help kids who really need help. From a practical standpoint, it's probably easier to get help to these kids than it is to get rid of the guns. From a political standpoint, it ironically might be even more difficult, because even though it isn't stated explicitly, there are a lot of people in this country who believe that the "right to be crazy" is even more important than the right to bear arms.
Agreed.

I've run into this on several occasions.

I think it stems at least partly from the fact that in the eyes of a lot of people anything that differs from the majority is often considered crazy here. It wasn't that long ago that a few people told my parents that they should send me to a psychiatrist because I fixed a radio.

When you get a situation where the crazies are deciding who'se crazy, as was not too uncommon in some areas, it can become problematic.
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Old 02-29-2012, 11:35 AM   #28 (permalink)
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That was an odd article. It felt like the last line should have repeated the title and answered it with, "I don't know."

I wonder if part of the problem is that we seem to have two school systems in place. The early education seems to be focusing more on the 'everyone is special', and the jr. high and high school system seems to be more in line with the traditional school system (rewarding students for specific extra-ordinary abilities, such as good athletic ability or high intelligence, while basically ignoring the mediocre students/abilities). Seems like the contrast between these two systems would create resentment and entitlement. Kids were brought up under the assumption everyone was special, but later learn that only some kids are special in a good way.

Combined with a stressful and depressing home life, I can see it being a volatile situation.
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Old 02-29-2012, 12:25 PM   #29 (permalink)
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Because Canadians are happier.

They have animals that look like Bullwinkle:



They have Bryan Adams, Barenaked Ladies and Nickelback!








Which one is Bullwinkle and which one is the lead singer from Nickleback?
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Old 02-29-2012, 12:44 PM   #30 (permalink)
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I'm not buying the gun argument. Guns were just as available... perhaps even more so when I was a kid, yet I went to a school where we didn't have metal detectors or an assigned cop stationed at the school.

There was just as much bullying... and just as many fucked up parents.. and mental illness... and even less awareness of it than there is today, so I'm don't think it's because people are more fucked up today.

Only two things seem to have really changed since I was kid. Where we had ~4 billion people on the planet, we now have 7 billion. And where an average person had an opportunity to grow up, get an education and a decent job and be able to afford a comfortable life and a family, now an average kid has very little to look forward to.
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Old 02-29-2012, 12:54 PM   #31 (permalink)
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Only two things seem to have really changed since I was kid. Where we had ~4 billion people on the planet, we now have 7 billion. And where an average person had an opportunity to grow up, get an education and a decent job and be able to afford a comfortable life and a family, now an average kid has very little to look forward to.
And more divorces, probably more domestic abuse too.

Angry parents = disturbed, angry kids.
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Old 02-29-2012, 01:00 PM   #32 (permalink)
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The U.S. is largely an honor culture, and that's not a good thing.

(The link focuses on the American south, but I think the whole U.S. has shades of it.)
There are some serious inaccuracies in that article married to some sweeping generalizations, just sayin.
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Old 02-29-2012, 01:02 PM   #33 (permalink)
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And more divorces, probably more domestic abuse too.

Angry parents = disturbed, angry kids.
Staying together for the sake of the kids also creates angry, unhappy parents. Divorce is sometimes a blessing... especially in cases of domestic violence.

As for the abuse... I don't know that we had less per capita, but I do know it was under reported.
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Old 02-29-2012, 01:20 PM   #34 (permalink)
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Yeah, that's one of the points made in the article in the OP, where he points out that the Columbine shooters weren't bullied.
Because of this thread I was just flipping thru Youtube videos. There is a british documentary about Columbine in it's entirety posted. They interviewed friends of Dylan and Eric. They also showed videos that Dylan and Eric made at school before the shooting. They were constantly bullied at school. Some of the videos even show it happening. They showed diary entries from both boys raging about it. So I am not sure where the idea they never were bullied came from in the OP article.

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Old 02-29-2012, 01:27 PM   #35 (permalink)
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I think the increase of school shootings is because of Columbine. Everyone knows the names of the two boys involved. How many tv shows, articles, movies, and books have been written about it?

A teenager who has a hellish home life either because of abuse or a cold home where no one sees them and then add a horrible school enviroment and you think you have no future .... they see Columbine as a heroic event. All the Youtube videos about Columbine have posts praising them.

So if you want to be known, praised, full of power, and remembered you copy them.

The interesting thing is that this doesnt happen in the same way at inner city schools where violence can be extremely high.
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Old 02-29-2012, 04:20 PM   #36 (permalink)
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If we're using the incident in Ohio as an example: The kid had a giant warning sign hanging over him, between the reports of bullying, the lack of school participation/socialization, and his home life (There are police reports of domestic abuse and his father was apparently charged with attempted murder) somebody should have noticed this kid and helped him. Sadly nobody did. Blaming this on guns isn't the answer. A gun is just a tool.
A shovel is a tool, and that can kill too. But thats not what it is designed for. A gun is not a tool. A gun is a weapon, It is designed for killing.
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Old 02-29-2012, 04:37 PM   #37 (permalink)
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I'm not buying the gun argument. Guns were just as available... perhaps even more so when I was a kid, yet I went to a school where we didn't have metal detectors or an assigned cop stationed at the school.

There was just as much bullying... and just as many fucked up parents.. and mental illness... and even less awareness of it than there is today, so I'm don't think it's because people are more fucked up today.

Only two things seem to have really changed since I was kid. Where we had ~4 billion people on the planet, we now have 7 billion. And where an average person had an opportunity to grow up, get an education and a decent job and be able to afford a comfortable life and a family, now an average kid has very little to look forward to.
Did you not read this part of the linked article?

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even in those suburbs and small towns where spree killings have occurred, the rates, per capita, are lower now than in previous decades.
So if those days you remember are more than a decade ago, then there were actually more killings then than now. I admit I am just taking the articles word on this and havent verified it elsewhere. But if you can show the opposite to be true, please do.
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Old 02-29-2012, 04:55 PM   #38 (permalink)
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Wrong on several accounts, sorry: my husband (who is Swiss) was in the army for about 20 years.

First, they don't just 'give them out whether you want them or not'. The guns are issued to those who are accepted in the army, which includes regular shooting practice (outside normal training courses). You don't want to handle guns? Then OK, you get to do 'civil protection' instead (after seeing a psychiatrist to be dispensed from normal service where you need to convince them you cannot and will not use arms).

You also pay (high) taxes for not being in the military.

Result? Most people do their initial training and the annual / biannual courses and live with it because it's expensive not to. What's more, not having done military training is often a handicap in major companies (banks, insurance) and government. Less so than a couple of decades before, but it still applies.

(I'm not going to get into the sheer uselessness of the Swiss army on many levels, or the waste of money, but believe me I could, while sort of appreciating that my finance-guy better half just happens to be also trained in fire fighting and demolition, courtesy of the army).

Second, the guns must be kept at home UNLOADED. Ammunition is no longer issued to keep at home, even sealed (and since they changed the law in 2007, 99% of sealed ammo that was issued to date has been returned). Ammo issued for those rifles must, by law, be used only at shooting ranges. Audits and logs are still kept.
Gun politics in Switzerland - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The penalties for using a military weapon outside training and mandatory shooting practice (or leaving one loaded at home that is then stolen or misused) are massive, or as in you get tried by both a penal AND a military court. Double whammy.

So quite honestly, 'incidents' are rare. Sure, they happen, but compared to the number of guns around, the amount of 'black market' ammo or abuse is minimal. One case where a guy shot up some government offices... he didn't use his military weapon.

So in my personal opinion, there is no widespread real 'gun culture' in Switzerland outside the shooting practice and shooting competitions - plus a little hunting but for that, military weapons cannot be used.

Strange, in a way - but perhaps comforting to know - that it *is* possible to have a huge number of (potentially) armed people but a low, low rate of abuse.

Again, what does that say about the US? I really don't know.
Jahar's point was that as switzerland and serbia have the highest per capita gun ownership in europe they must have the most school shootings. The point I was trying to make (apparently unsuccessfully) was that there is more involved than just counting the number of guns per head of the population.

I know nothing about serbian gun ownership, but I was aware that the swiss have national service and that is why many of them have guns. I grant you I don't know all the details. The point of the questions I posed was to try and get people to consider the difference between the gun cultures of the two countries.

Now, thanks to your information, we know just how different average gun holder in each country is. The swiss owner may not actually desire to have a gun, but accepts it because of the financial cost of not joining the army. The swiss owner is unlikely to have any ammunition for their weapon. The swiss owner faces severe penalties for using it outside of a few narrowly defined circumstances.

Would you agree with that summary?

So far as I can see everything you said backed up my whole point. I obviously expressed it very badly.
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Old 02-29-2012, 05:19 PM   #39 (permalink)
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Old 02-29-2012, 05:42 PM   #40 (permalink)
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Because the government will not install metal detectors in schools.

Horseshit.

Metal detectors have been a regular part of schools in NYC since the 80s.

They were installed in *my* high school in *1984*.

(ironically.)
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Old 02-29-2012, 05:51 PM   #41 (permalink)
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Horseshit.

Metal detectors have been a regular part of schools in NYC since the 80s.

They were installed in *my* high school in *1984*.

(ironically.)
Comparing NYC to suburban Cleveland to rural Knox County, Tennessee, is apples, grapes, and oranges.

But the guns are here too. School boards are limited by the budget set by other entities, who are limited by what the taxpayers will bear, who will not support tax increases for a threat they haven't yet perceived.
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Old 02-29-2012, 06:00 PM   #42 (permalink)
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For those arguing guns cause school shootings:

A gun does not have arms, nor legs. It does not have a mind. It does, however, fire small caliber projectiles at breakneck speeds for the sake of penetration and/or death.

A person does have arms, legs, and even a mind. Some people have a use for something that fires small caliber projectiles at breakneck speeds for the sake of penetration and/or death.

When guns aren't available, we use various other things. However, we still like to use guns the most because they're the best at ending the day-to-day-lives of various organisms.

At the end of the day, a gun left alone will not kill people. A gun left with a bullied, isolated, harassed, unsupported, lonely, troubled, harmonal, undeveloped organism with the ability to reason will be used to kill people.

But it won't kill people on its own.

Regulate guns, and people will complain about the right to bear arms. And that same disturbed child will likely have an also-disturbed parent. And that parent will likely have a gun. If their parent doesn't have a gun, I imagine that child will find one somewhere, or they will simply kill individuals rather than whole crowds with more bloody tools. Like a hammer. Or a knife. We can't regulate those.

When leaving a kid to be isolated and harassed bitterly over an extended period of time, it's all about getting lucky and having that same isolated kid in a highly regulated area where their parents do not have guns, despite the likely scenario in which the child's parents also have issues.

All of this thinking, and we have only learned one thing: Complaining about guns doesn't do jack shit.

Let's just put the kid in therapy, get him/her the hell out of that school, properly prosecute and/or discipline the problem kids, and only do the necessary thinking. Oh, and it's cheaper, too. Because, at the end of the day, if you keep that gun out of that child's hand, you'll still be pitifully abandoning them like an ass.

It's a win-win no matter how you look at it. Unless you don't like people.
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Old 02-29-2012, 07:07 PM   #43 (permalink)
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Comparing NYC to suburban Cleveland to rural Knox County, Tennessee, is apples, grapes, and oranges.

But the guns are here too. School boards are limited by the budget set by other entities, who are limited by what the taxpayers will bear, who will not support tax increases for a threat they haven't yet perceived.
The news is reporting that Chardon did not have metal detectors installed in their school. The town only has 5,000 residents so it's questionable that their budget could afford both teachers AND metal detectors.
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Old 02-29-2012, 07:34 PM   #44 (permalink)
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It's like no one watched Bowling for Columbine here.
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Old 02-29-2012, 07:57 PM   #45 (permalink)
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I think the increase of school shootings is because of Columbine. Everyone knows the names of the two boys involved. How many tv shows, articles, movies, and books have been written about it?

A teenager who has a hellish home life either because of abuse or a cold home where no one sees them and then add a horrible school enviroment and you think you have no future .... they see Columbine as a heroic event. All the Youtube videos about Columbine have posts praising them.

So if you want to be known, praised, full of power, and remembered you copy them.

The interesting thing is that this doesnt happen in the same way at inner city schools where violence can be extremely high.
I don't think it's because of columbine, though that might be something of a factor. I think it's largely due to larger class sizes for kids thrown into a hellish social environment with not nearly enough supervision between classes, at lunch, on the bus, etc. Junior High and High School is a highly competitive environment with immature egos creating social hierarchy and large scale ostracization and bullying.
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Old 02-29-2012, 07:58 PM   #46 (permalink)
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How the fuck are metal detectors meant to stop a lunatic with an automatic weapon?

My gut tells me you need to go a bit deeper to solve this issue.

Last edited by Richie Waves; 02-29-2012 at 08:03 PM.
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Old 02-29-2012, 08:31 PM   #47 (permalink)
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Did you not read this part of the linked article?

So if those days you remember are more than a decade ago, then there were actually more killings then than now. I admit I am just taking the articles word on this and havent verified it elsewhere. But if you can show the opposite to be true, please do.
I do wonder why you're questioning my reading the O.P. when it's obvious you didn't read my reply...

My comment about guns was directed first towards a previous poster's comment about gun availability being the problem... and also noting that despite more guns being just as available nevertheless, we didn't feel so unsafe that we had metal detectors and police in schools. Also.. we didn't have school shootings.
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Old 02-29-2012, 09:14 PM   #48 (permalink)
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It's like no one watched Bowling for Columbine here.
Oh, I watched it. However I take Michael Moore as seriously as I take Fox News.
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Old 02-29-2012, 09:17 PM   #49 (permalink)
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Sorry to double post but a thought just occurred to me in regards to bullying.

I was a fat kid from age 8 and up, as a result of that I was pretty bullied all throughout school. The thing is though, when I went home or went out to hang out with my friends the bullying stopped. I had an escape from it. I don't think kids these days with facebook, twitter and the other various social media outlets have that type of escape.

Also, when the bullying got too bad the bully and I would have a dust up. Nothing serious, just two kids fighting. After that it was done. Most schools will send you to jail for that now so I imagine it just keeps the tension building.
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Old 02-29-2012, 10:09 PM   #50 (permalink)
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Sorry to double post but a thought just occurred to me in regards to bullying.

I was a fat kid from age 8 and up, as a result of that I was pretty bullied all throughout school. The thing is though, when I went home or went out to hang out with my friends the bullying stopped. I had an escape from it. I don't think kids these days with facebook, twitter and the other various social media outlets have that type of escape.
I was bullied through much of school and since I had a mean older sister it didn't stop when I went home. I still had an escape though - books, drawing, my room, the arcade, etc. etc. Somehow it never occurred to me to kill anyone. There is always a refuge in your head, unless your head is no refuge. What I mean is that bullying can no doubt be a catalyst but it can't be pointed to as a cause. The cause will always be inside the shooter in my opinion.
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