Perphides

A question: If someone thinks it's OK to kill babies before they're born, why would it be wrong to do so based on the child's gender?

LINK

Sonja Aeghin

Holy crap! And here we were thinking you were gone!

Sex-selective abortions are more common in places like China and I think India, where there's a cultural preference for boys over girls. I find it odd that such could happen in the UK, but I'm no expert on UK abortion law.

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Void

damnit Casey, I fucking told you and I hold you responsible :: mean face ::

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Wrong Weatherwax

Kill babies before they are born.

This logical impossibility just says it all doesn't it?

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Perphides

My oldest son was born at 5:20PM.. are you suggesting that at 5:19 he was... what, exactly??

Sonja Aeghin

From what I've understood from abortion-related posts recently, a parasite and a threat to the mother's life. To some. But that does not speak for everybody.

Seyla Warden

Before we can address your link, you're going to have to explain this 'killing babies before they're born' thing. Since you seem to be basing your post around it and all.

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Cristiano

I think the question being asked, however badly by Perphides is if abortion for any reason is fine, how is sex selection not a legitimate reason for abortion?

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Cristiano

I will add that I am fully pro-choice and a decision to have an abortion is entirely up to the woman. However, it doesn't mean that I think any reason to have one is a good reason. Aborting a baby because you wanted a boy instead of a girl seems pretty horrible to me.

bladyblue

Dear woman,

You know this entire argument is one of personal choice. Period.

bronxelf

It is a legitimate reason.

It's just not one I agree with. I don't have to agree with all the potential reasons to support the overall right.

I don't believe anyone seeking an abortion for any reason (any.) whether I agree with it or not, is required to seek my (or anyone else's) approval for doing so.

I don't have to like the reason. It's not up to me to like it or approve of it.

Do I think it says something lousy and sexist about the person using the reason? You bet. So? That doesn't give me the right to disallow their decision. It just means I think they're a shitty person.

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Kaimi Kyomoon

A lot of UKers these days are children and grandchildren of people from Common Wealth nations, like India. Could that be part of the reason?

Kaimi Kyomoon

I myself have never had an undesired pregnancy. I've know quite a few women over the years who have and have chosen to abort. I don't know if any of them knew the gender of the unborn baby, none of them mentioned that when making the decision that they weren't ready to have a baby. Back when I had my son we all had to wait until the baby was born to learn the gender. I wasn't hoping for one or the other.
Anyway. If a woman has someone growing inside her body and she does not want him or her there I don't see how she can be denied the right to have him or her removed, no matter what her reasons are.

Beebo Brink

to every single word.

Choice is just that: choice. It's not: your choice until I don't agree with why you chose.

It's entirely within my right to despise someone's reasons, just not within my right to control their actions.

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Casey Pelous

Shit, shit, shit, shit, shit!

My bad.

Mea culpa.

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"Casey, I've already established that you have no idea what you are talking about." - Perphides

Artemis Fate

It's obvious what Perphides' agenda is in asking the question, but that doesn't mean it's not a valid or interesting question.

I think Abortion is a sometimes necessary thing, but that doesn't mean it should be something to be taken lightly. I think using abortions as a "do-over" until you get the type of child you want is, with probably a few exceptions regarding physical/mental deformities, taking the process too lightly.

Ishina

Why are you so stupid?

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Sally Rosebud

So, with ultrasound, you can find out the sex of a baby around 18-20 weeks. Abortions are not generally performed after 12 weeks (unless the mother's health is in danger), correct? Are there new tests that doctors are doing? Or are you just making shit up?

Jahar Aabye

First, with that shitty news report, the plural of "anecdote" is not "data". How common are gender-based decisions on abortion in developed nations?

A more important question is how the hell does one even get good data to answer that question? It's not like one can magically divine intent. Maybe when a woman says "I can't give birth to another boy" she means "because my husband will beat me to within an inch of my life"? Maybe she just felt that the question "why do you want to have an abortion?" was so idiotic that she felt like giving an equally idiotic response...for example because she didn't feel comfortable discussing a very personal uterine condition that might make childbirth extremely dangerous?

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Tracer Graves

I know in the US, that there are states at which you could still get an abortion up to 22 or 24 weeks, but it's treated more seriously, is more expensive, etc. Now, a fetus isn't viable until at least 24 weeks, and that's still a low survival probability. Not sure how the UK works.

Perphie,

I think that abortion can be a sad affair in some regards, but not all, and it is fairly contested on moral AND legal ground. So, you would have to legally favor a certain religious POV in order to deny a woman that right, therefore, it would be unconstitutional.

Don't you faux-libertarians just love it when the constitution cuts both ways?

The constitution applies to the CITIZENS of this country, and we are going to have to invoke pre-birth citizenship to do what you want to do.

Anyway, just one guy sharing his perspective with another guy (the OP). We don't have a uterus, so we really can't understand the gravity of the personal decision of whether to carry a pregnancy to term, no matter how much we pretend we do.

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Void

:: grumble :: it's your prescience that I'm more aggravated with than you :: hugs :: sorry I snapped.


@Transparent Thread:
you expect people to either say that it's ok, and judge them morally bankrupt, or say it's not and try to argue down choice for any other reason building from there...

sorry but it's not really that simple.

if someone is that desperate for a choice, there are other methods, and I do find it morally reprehensible not to avail themselves of those other methods, not to mention stupid and wasteful. On the same hand I also support choice, yes even for that reason, despite my personal distaste. That's what personal responsibility and free will are all about... I cannot support them for myself without supporting them for others.

abVanmoer

Actually, the introduction of the ultrasound in the 80s has lead to sex-selective abortions becoming fairly widespread in some societies. And irrespective of where one stands on the morality of abortion or a woman's right to choose there is no doubt that it is a demographic time bomb waiting to happen. If I recall correctly current estimates are that by 2020 China will have between 30 and 50 million "surplus" men. The repercussions are already being felt with an increase in sexual slavery and trafficking of women from surrounding countries, particularly North Korea.

Personally I believe that a women has the right to choose, but it does become a lot more complex when this right as exemplified by sex-selective abortion could have enormous repercussions on society as a whole. I suppose it boils down to whether one believes that individual rights exceed group rights or visa versa. For me the jury is still out.

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Seyla Warden

The bottom line is that every woman gets to choose whether she wants an abortion or not. Period full stop.

You can feel or think whatever you want about that, in general or in specific cases. But regardless you have no jurisdiction over another person's body.

It's really not that hard of a concept to grasp.

Plurabelle

To me there is a big difference between the general choice to have an abortion - and the question if a society allows all kinds of genetic selection.
I am absolutely pro choice. A woman has the right to decide if she wants to become a mother or not.
But in the moment the decision is based on prenatal diagnostics, it becomes a question of genetic selection and possible eugenics. And this is a question about the norms and goals of a society. I personally prefer to have regulations and laws to limit what is being tested and if the results of these tests are a valid reason for an abortion. I wouldn't want to leave the decisions about the human gene pool - and in this case, about the demographic structure of society - to the 'free market'.
But actually I am not really sure if I want to discuss this in a thread whose OP equates abortions with 'killing babies'.

Seyla Warden

I'm not very comfortable with the window into eugenics something like this allows, either.

But me not being comfortable with it doesn't mean I get to say "No, you're getting this abortion because you don't want a boy and I won't allow it". When you boil it all the way down, no matter what reason each woman has for an abortion, it's still her choice and nobody else's.

IMO at least.