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Argent Stonecutter · 11-26-2011, 06:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ann Otoole

In Florida you can not only use lethal force to defend your home but you can use lethal force to defend yourself anywhere. Guess we floriduhnians be terroristas.

There are no limits to what you can do? You can set up unattended booby traps to gun down people who stand in front of your door too long, in case they're picking the lock? No, I'm sure there are limits, even in Florida.

Ann Otoole · 11-26-2011, 08:21 AM

booby traps are illegal by themselves without being used argent.

I do find it remarkable one can gun down the masses of robbers murdering people around here almost daily and they just let you go. I guess that is called outsourcing the justice system to street judges. Saves billions of dollars.

**Amber Guity** · 11-26-2011, 10:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Perphides

That's a provocative statement, Kara. So a society where you are not legally able to protect your own property is "civilized?" Because I'm thinking it sounds pretty un-civilized.

Would it be "civilized" if someone carjacked you tonight on the way home? Or stole your purse as you walked out of a store? Or helped themselves to your TV set and electronics while you were away from home?

What do you think you should be able to do if you catch me trying to sneak off with your purse? Can you hit me? Subdue me? Just shout for help?

Now... what if I was really, really poor and needed your purse more than you do?

You have that backwards. Civilized is not NEEDING to defend your stuff. Civilized is living in a society where steps are taken to PREVENT crime, not punish after the fact, or allow common citizens to punish. Same argument applies to the death penalty being a "deterrent". It basically locks the barn door after the horses have bolted.

Argent Stonecutter · 11-26-2011, 10:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ann Otoole

booby traps are illegal by themselves without being used argent.

I'm at a loss how to respond to this without seeming sarcastic.

They're illegal because there is, in fact, a limit to the force you can use to protect your property. There are countries (or parts of the world that are given that name for lack of a better one) where that's not true. You don't want to live there.

Han Held · 11-26-2011, 10:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amber Guity

You have that backwards. Civilized is not NEEDING to defend your stuff. Civilized is living in a society where steps are taken to PREVENT crime, not punish after the fact, or allow common citizens to punish. Same argument applies to the death penalty being a "deterrent". It basically locks the barn door after the horses have bolted.

eighthdwarf Checchinato · 11-26-2011, 10:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amber Guity

You have that backwards. Civilized is not NEEDING to defend your stuff. Civilized is living in a society where steps are taken to PREVENT crime (and not in a "Minority Report" kind of way, but by using reason and education), not punish after the fact, or allow common citizens to punish. Same argument applies to the death penalty being a "deterrent". It basically locks the barn door after the horses have bolted.

Fify to add the bolded text

Otherwise, 100%agree.

Kara Spengler · 11-26-2011, 02:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ann Otoole

I Guess we floriduhnians be terroristas.

Talk about a setup line ...

Perphides · 11-26-2011, 06:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amber Guity

You have that backwards. Civilized is not NEEDING to defend your stuff. Civilized is living in a society where steps are taken to PREVENT crime, not punish after the fact, or allow common citizens to punish. Same argument applies to the death penalty being a "deterrent". It basically locks the barn door after the horses have bolted.

And how do you suggest that you "prevent" ALL crime? Because as long as there is ANY crime, then people have a right to protect themselves and their property.

Ann Otoole · 11-26-2011, 07:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Perphides

And how do you suggest that you "prevent" ALL crime? Because as long as there is ANY crime, then people have a right to protect themselves and their property.

When everyone is equal and has equal and feels happy with what they have and they feel no need to have more and there is no religious strife. That is the end of crime. Also the end of war. One world. One people. No "race".

Gigs · 11-26-2011, 08:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amber Guity

Civilized is not NEEDING to defend your stuff. Civilized is living in a society where steps are taken to PREVENT crime,

We are just getting civilized, now that concealed carry is legal in most places.

And crime has gone increasingly down (faster than the general decline it was on) as gun sales and concealed carry permits have gone sharply up.

Carry a gun. Prevent crime.

Perphides · 11-26-2011, 08:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ann Otoole

When everyone is equal and has equal and feels happy with what they have and they feel no need to have more and there is no religious strife. That is the end of crime. Also the end of war. One world. One people. No "race".

When will that be, Ann? What type of a magical universe will we live in when people have no self-interest, and one man does not want to have more than his neighbor? Why don't we repeal the law of gravity while we're at it? Now that I'm closing in on 40 I could see the benefits of that...

**Amber Guity** · 11-26-2011, 08:36 PM

Given that your cynical view of our society seems to be more common than those of us who feel it shows strength of character to care for each other and help each other up from the bottom, I doubt it will ever happen. People who feel that the perfect society consists of killing each other to protect the material things they have, have lost their view of the good in all of us. And that continues the downward spiral we find ourselves in.

Kara Spengler · 11-26-2011, 09:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gigs

We are just getting civilized, now that concealed carry is legal in most places.

I fail to see how carrying around something that can fire a slug that will rip through flesh, bone and organs is at ALL considered civilised by anyone!!!!!

From a physics point of view consider that you are increasing the entropy in a system. So rather than using the comparatively minimal energy to prevent a chaotic state from developing in the first place you are exerting a LOT of effort trying to resolve one. Which means using up even more energy to correct it, correct your corrections, correct your corrections to your corrections, ad infinitum. While the system may appear stable at first, the second derivative is positive so eventually any external controls will be overwhelmed.

Argent Stonecutter · 11-27-2011, 11:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr. B

Bold = check your facts.

Fox News Boycott | Fox-Can-Lie Lawsuit

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wikipedia

Jane Akre and her husband Steve Wilson are former employees of Fox owned-and-operated station WTVT in Tampa, Florida. In 1997, they were fired from the station after refusing to knowingly include false information in their report concerning the Monsanto Company’s production of RBGH, a drug designed to make cows produce more milk. They successfully sued under Florida’s whistle blower law and were awarded a US $425,000 settlement by jury decision. However, Fox appealed to an appellate court and won, after the court declared that the FCC policy against falsification that Fox violated was just a policy and not a “law, rule, or regulation”, and so the whistle blower law did not apply.

The court agreed with WTVT’s (Fox) argument “that the FCC’s policy against the intentional falsification of the news — which the FCC has called its “news distortion policy” — does not qualify as the required “law, rule, or regulation” under section 448.102.[...] Because the FCC’s news distortion policy is not a “law, rule, or regulation” under section 448.102, Akre has failed to state a claim under the whistle-blower’s statute.”[1]

In 2001, Jane Akre and her husband won the Goldman Environmental Prize as a recognition for their report on RBGH. [2]

In 2004, Fox filed a US$1.7 million counter-suit against Akre and Wilson for trial fees and costs. Akre and Wilson both appear in a major portion of the 2004/5 critical documentary, The Corporation.

In 2007 Jane became the editor-in-chief of the national news desk at InjuryBoard.com.[3]

Artemis Fate · 11-28-2011, 11:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ann Otoole

When everyone is equal and has equal and feels happy with what they have and they feel no need to have more and there is no religious strife. That is the end of crime. Also the end of war. One world. One people. No "race".

A post-scarcity society would go a long way towards curing human conflict, but it wouldn't be the end of it, there's still be crimes of passion, crimes of insanity, crimes for the thrill, those are the sort of things that wouldn't be easy to remove without fundamentally changing the human condition.

**Void** · 11-30-2011, 01:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kara Spengler

I fail to see how carrying around something that can fire a slug that will rip through flesh, bone and organs is at all considered civilised by anyone!!!!! [...]

depends on the scale and the intent... if one does so to prevent entropy from degrading an ordered system, the minor loss of local order can be seen as a net gain in the larger scale... preserving a level of order is an imperative of civilization after all. (hey it's not ideal, but then ideal circumstances rarely occur)

@General Thread:
Oh how I've missed the scale of utter stupidity displayed in this thread, and watching it smacked around so skillfully (and not so skillfully)....

so just for fun I'll throw this out there... History News Network
cause a good fire needs wood.

Kara Spengler · 11-30-2011, 05:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Void

depends on the scale and the intent... if one does so to prevent entropy from degrading an ordered system, the minor loss of local order can be seen as a net gain in the larger scale... preserving a level of order is an imperative of civilization after all. (hey it's not ideal, but then ideal circumstances rarely occur)

Actually, if you have even the smallest amount of chaos it will become magnified. For example, Hawking and a group of other scientists worked out how the universe went from an evenly distributed hydrogen gas to the complexity we observe today. After all, if there is an even distribution nothing ever changes because the attractions are all the same. It turns out there is no such thing as a perfectly ordered system in nature. All it takes is removing 4 (I think that is the right #) atoms and things start to move. You eventually get everything that we see now.

Yes, I said there is no such thing as a perfectly ordered system. Still, it takes far less energy to maintain that original state than trying to move the universe back to an evenly distributed gas (especially since whatever force would also need to do the same).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Void

Oh how I've missed the scale of utter stupidity displayed in this thread, and watching it smacked around so skillfully (and not so skillfully)....

Because we all know physics analogies show stupidity, right? LOL

Quote:

Originally Posted by Void

so just for fun I'll throw this out there... History News Network
cause a good fire needs wood.

Not surprisingly, I am more inclined to believe Russell Means (who literally put his life on the line in the 70s) than the 15th century version of the american family association.

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11-26-2011, 08:21 AM	#477 (permalink)
Ann Otoole Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Posts: 16,374	booby traps are illegal by themselves without being used argent. I do find it remarkable one can gun down the masses of robbers murdering people around here almost daily and they just let you go. I guess that is called outsourcing the justice system to street judges. Saves billions of dollars.

11-26-2011, 08:36 PM	#487 (permalink)
Amber Guity state of non-being *SLU Supporter* The maple kind? Join Date: Dec 2009 Posts: 1,381 My Mood: Client: Firestorm	Given that your cynical view of our society seems to be more common than those of us who feel it shows strength of character to care for each other and help each other up from the bottom, I doubt it will ever happen. People who feel that the perfect society consists of killing each other to protect the material things they have, have lost their view of the good in all of us. And that continues the downward spiral we find ourselves in.

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