Richie Waves

I guess thats what you call pointing out obvious corruption where you see it.. Its quite clear why he's not the GOP's favorite son..

Ned Easterwood

McCain - a liberal??????

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Ned

Billy Grace

Thanks for the thread Richey. I think this is a good topic for discussion.

The one thing I will give McCain is he is pro-military, a conservative ideal. As far as his liberal past here are a few examples where McCain sides with the left on some key issues:

1. Religion – In 2000 he went as far as to call key religious leaders “agents of intolerance”. He has since repackaged himself to be pro-Christian going after the support of key religious leaders.

2. Abortion – He is pro-choice. In 1999 he sided with the pro-abortion camp suggesting that overturning Roe v. Wade would lead to illegal abortiopns. He has since repackaged himself as pro-life going as far as to say he would support a ban on abortions in South Decoda.

3. Campaign Finance Reform – The McCain-Feingold Campaign Reform Act is a decidedly liberal legislation. The act poses blatant restrictions on political speech especially affecting AM Radio and political internet blogs, two very popular conservative forums.

4. 4. Immigration – He supports work visa’s and citizenship for illegal immigrants, a decidedly liberal view.

5. Taxes – He has supported raising taxes in the past, has since lip-flopped to the tax cut crowd.

6. Judicial Nominations – He helped form the Gang of 14, including seven Democrats, who agreed to block a GOP Senate from using the "nuclear option" -- allowing a simple GOP majority to break a Democrat filibuster of judicial nominees -- unless the seven Democrats approved. McCain thus conspired with liberals to put at risk the conservatives nominees of President Bush. He has opposed most of Bush’s nominations and supported Ginsburg and Breyer.

7. Trade – Supported NAFTA along with Bill Clinton and the rest of the Democrats while most republicans were against it. The end result was an outsourcing of American jobs and a big hit to our economy.

8. Climate Change – He supported a Joe Lieberman climate change bill that would result in tax increases.

9. Gay Marriage – Supports it being the a choice at the state level, not federal. This is once again decidedly a liberal view.

10. Health Care – Joined with Ted Kenedy of all people and against most republicans to support a big government mandate health care plan that is now a quarter of a billion dollars in the red.

In short, he has a long record of fighting Republicans on key conservative legislation and siding with the Democrats. He has repackaged himself in recent years for this run at the presidency but I can’t trust someone with such a liberal past to stick to his new found conservatism after elected. I am sure there is more but this is what I came up with in 15 minutes of looking. So, is McCain a liberal? Damn skippy he is.

I do want to note that I am giving examples of McCain’s liberalism. I personally don’t disagree with him on all of these issues.

Stankleberry Sullivan

He's not "a liberal". He's the most liberal of the top Republican nominees.

Victoria Kemsley

I suppose I should be happy that unless a unforseen scandal appears, with McCain being the republican nominee (folks it's over for all intents) we keep the White House for four more years, I do have some serious reservations about him.

Abortion and religion.. waffled. Just to set the record straight about me, my body, my decision. Religion, have none, don't want yours.

NAFTA, huge fucking mistake.

Immigration, this is a problem that needs solved now, it's not to late to find a reasonable well thought out solution. If it continues like it is now, some really bad times might be in our future. I don't know what his plan is on this, but given his waffling on other issues, I don't know that I would trust anything he is currently saying.

The only things I am comfortable with him about is his pro military stance and I think he would have a good grasp on foreign relations.

He just seems slippery to me, and I'm left without a canadate I can feel good about voting for

Billy Grace

Me too, I voted for Romney in the primary but he has his issues as well. There is no easy choice for Republicans this year but I will say that whoever wins the Repub nomination will be a very easy choice over whoever wins the Dem nomination.

Vivienne Graves

Point by point:

1. Religion isn't a 'conservative' issue; no-one would accuse Barry Goldwater of being a 'liberal', and his opinion of the fundamentalist fanatics who've come to make up a sizeable part of the Republican Party was not much different from McCain's. (From a strict-constructionist, constitutionalist viewpoint, taking that bit in the First Amendment about 'no law respecting an establishment of religion' SERIOUSLY is the genuinely conservative position).

2. Abortion isn't a conservative issue, either (see above re religion).

3. No, it doesn't (you might try actually reading it); it imposes restrictions on campaign advertising funded by corporations and labour unions (the latter of which tend to support Democrats, by the way). Personally, I tend to think that eliminating undue influence on the electoral process by people who have their own interests at heart rather than what's best for the country is a GOOD thing; don't you?

4. Two words: Reagan and amnesty (was Reagan a liberal? Or a realist?)

5. Largest deficits in history; national debt currently approximately equal to the sum total of the debt incurred by the US from 1776 to 2001. Raising taxes in this situation is an economic necessity. Not to do so is fiscally irresponsible.

6. Maybe he just thinks that there's no reason to tamper with the institution of the Senate and make it spread its legs for the executive branch any more than it already has; a two-thirds vote to end a filibuster is a good way to block *bad* legislation being forced through Congress, and I don't see that de facto one-party rule, with the opposition stripped of those things that made it EFFECTIVE, is a particularly good OR 'American' thing (checks and balances, remember).

7. That's also not true at all; free trade has traditionally been a Republican issue, and NAFTA expanded a free trade agreement between the US and Canada signed into law by RONALD REAGAN in 1988.

8. You know, it could just be me, but I would regard safeguarding the future of the planet for succeeding generations as being of a higher priority than whether I have to pay higher taxes (and the science of climate change, and the role of humans in causing it, is at this point well-established, and the scientists who argue against it have no real credibility...not to mention that the fact that most of them are on oil-company payrolls; what do you EXPECT them to say?)

9. Opposition to gay marriage isn't a 'conservative' issue, either. (See above re religious zealots)

10. The Federal government as a whole is many trillions in the red; see above re fiscal irresponsibility (and every other developed nation has some form of nationalised health plan for its citizens; one doesn't see how a system that seems designed to do nothing but enrich insurance companies, HMOs and health management corporations is a preferable alternative).

Billy Grace

The point was not to discuss whether or not I was in favor of each point, I am with McCain on some, not on others. The point was to discuss how McCain has sided with Democrats on key issues and why he has a very liberal past.

Like it or not, Conservatives and Liberals do generally take sided on key issues and in general McCain falls to the liberal side more often than not.

To say something ridiculous like "Abortion isn't a conservative issue." just isn't true. Hell yes it is. Conservatives in general support the right to life, liberals in general support the right to choose. To even insinuate that these aren't conservative issues is beyond me.

Richie Waves

But with issues like this Billy, theres a little thing called reality that you must take into consideration.

Remember not everyone is a bible thumping lunatic in America.

Billy Grace

Including me tyvm. TY for stereotyping me though.

Oh, and as for reality.. reality is that abortion is a very polarizing, clear cut political issue in the United States.

Victoria Kemsley

Abortion in Ireland has had a controversial history and remains a disputed subject today. Abortion is effectively illegal in both the Republic of Ireland and Northern Ireland

So everyone in Ireland is a bible thumping lunatic??

Just wondering, it's not nice to label people. I respect their right to have a differant view than mine, and they might have many and varied reasons for not supporting abortion. I just don't have to agree with them.

Richie Waves

You're of course correct.. but that foothold the catholic church had on us is dying a quite fast death, what about America? as far as I see it the evangelists and other militant Religious zealots are enjoying lots of power, real power.

as to your question, there are indeed plenty of bible thumping lunatics in Ireland.. but the line between Government and church is moving in only one Direction.

Richie Waves

Ramonna Villota

To me what hurts him the most is the gang of 14....

breaking the rules and senate would have been the best thing for the country. Reason once it is broken you can not fix it again. There is no compromise with the other party. The democrats took him for a bitch and played him as a bitch.
If a democrat is elected this year watch as the democrats go for that nuculear button. As the Repug firewall just as the democrats did.

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Ramonna
Enginn er verri þótt hann sé perri.

http://www.plurk.com/Ramonna
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Billy Grace

I agree, the gang of 14 was a clear case of siding with liberals in the face of his Republican brethren. McCain showed his true colors that day and I will never trust him after that stab in the back. What amazes me is how quickly people forget.

Richie Waves

I thought y'all would love the guy that sang "Bomb bomb bomb bomb bomb Iran!"

A real Charmer.

Billy Grace

Not sure what you are referring to there Richie.

Richie Waves

He was asked by an audience member at one of his talks when the US should send Iran an "Airmail"..

He answered "you now the old beachboys song? bomb bomb bomb bomb bomb Iran" to much laughter.. because maimed children are funny.

Richie Waves

Sorry Billy, Liberals have more respect for actual born living humans than this.

Clancy Sullivan

If McCain is a liberal then Billy Grace is a traveling vacuum cleaner saleman.



Ok, wait. If McCain is a liberal than I'm the head of the Roman Catholic Church.

jacqueline trudeau

Was that Stankleberry asking the question?

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Trudeau Classic Sailing Yachts

Billy Grace

So do conservatives. That is disgraceful, what a jackass. Yet another reason to not like the man.

Billy Grace

Well... how do you do Pope Clancy Paul III?

jacqueline trudeau

My BS meter sprang to life when I saw that claim. Sure enough, the Republican Senate vote was 32 to 9 in favor. McCain voted with other liberals such as Trent Lott, Mitch
McConnell, and Alan Simpson. 28 Democrats voted against it.

I don't have enough time to investigate what other history Billy has rewritten.

Richie Waves

Without looking this up: wasn't it a carry over project from Ronnie Raygun also?