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Old 06-05-2011, 03:11 PM   #51 (permalink)
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Ah, okay.

Aimee, can you put down that broom, please? It's creeping me out.
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Old 06-05-2011, 03:13 PM   #52 (permalink)
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but addressing us on masse as priviledged was foolish, considering out wide and varied backgrounds and locations

have you ever been arrested?
You're right, not everyone here is privileged. But a fucktonne of us are.

Yup. Been arrested. Did jail time. Got thrown into solitary for confronting a dick guard. Lucky not to have experienced worse. Worked for years in a homeless shelter where I got acquainted with countless numbers of homeless people who had been fucked over by cops. Seen a friend assaulted by cops and then saw him do jail time on bogus charges of assaulting a police officer. And I live on the south side of Chicago, where I've seen a thing or three about how cops really act. So while I may be privileged, I've also been ass up against the ugly side and know something about it first hand.
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Old 06-05-2011, 04:26 PM   #53 (permalink)
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Fair enough.



It's not a job like any other. The authority to use force, including lethal force, makes it unlike any other. And therefore should be closely monitored, including by citizens with phone cameras.
Back to this. Let's say you're with your kids in an outdoor market and someone is there by the cookie tent with a camera. The camera is focusing on anyone with kids who pass that tent. Wouldn't that creep you out? It's a public area. He's just filming people, and if he gets footage of a kid having a tantrum or a parent wigging out that's postable on the internet, he has every right to do so, right?

I said before that I don't agree with the cop's reaction at all, but at the same time when someone holds up a camera at cops they aren't likely doing it out of civic duty so much as entering the George Holliday Sweepstakes. Yes, most especially in such circumstances cops ought to watch their behavior. But so should everyone else.
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Old 06-05-2011, 04:33 PM   #54 (permalink)
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Back to this. Let's say you're with your kids in an outdoor market and someone is there by the cookie tent with a camera. The camera is focusing on anyone with kids who pass that tent. Wouldn't that creep you out? It's a public area. He's just filming people, and if he gets footage of a kid having a tantrum or a parent wigging out that's postable on the internet, he has every right to do so, right?

I said before that I don't agree with the cop's reaction at all, but at the same time when someone holds up a camera at cops they aren't likely doing it out of civic duty so much as entering the George Holliday Sweepstakes. Yes, most especially in such circumstances cops ought to watch their behavior. But so should everyone else.
A cop on duty is a public servant. Cops behaving badly kill, maim, and injure people. If citizens want to document the behavior of these public servants, then more power to them.

Filming kids in public, not so much. First, the creep factor of adults filming kids has little to do with what they might post to YouTube. Second, the good reasons for filming cops on duty don't apply to kids. Or do you think an asshole cop with a gun and an attack dog is as inoffensive as a kid throwing a tantrum?
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Old 06-05-2011, 04:41 PM   #55 (permalink)
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A cop on duty is a public servant. Cops behaving badly kill, maim, and injure people. If citizens want to document the behavior of these public servants, then more power to them.
Would
Filming kids in public, not so much. First, the creep factor of adults filming kids has little to do with what they might post to YouTube. Second, the good reasons for filming cops on duty don't apply to kids. Or do you think an asshole cop with a gun and an attack dog is as inoffensive as a kid throwing a tantrum?
Parents behaving badly kill, maim, and psychologically destroy their children, and often times incidents go unreported or lost in the bureaucratic shuffle. Child abuse happens same as police abuse, and winds up a headliner just the same if it's caught on tape. Would then the camera in the market be just as useful and vigilant filming parents as one would at a station filming cops?
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Old 06-05-2011, 04:46 PM   #56 (permalink)
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Heh! Before you were comparing this to filming the children. Now you're comparing it to filming the parents. Make up your mind.

The worst you're going to find parents doing in public is flying off the handle, and maybe smacking a kid. Not good, sometimes not excusable, but nothing like the truly destructive abuse you're talking about. Parents do that shit in private.

You're just thrashing around looking for some way to defend an untenable position. Give it up.
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Old 06-05-2011, 04:49 PM   #57 (permalink)
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Being monitored by the one who signs your time card is a little different from taking the stance of I'm a taxpayer so you work for me and that empowers me to monitor you and tell you how to do your job.
No, it's not really any different. The police do work for us, and they are sworn to protect and serve. If we don't monitor them and report them when they're violating their oath, who will?
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Old 06-05-2011, 04:56 PM   #58 (permalink)
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Heh! Before you were comparing this to filming the children. Now you're comparing it to filming the parents. Make up your mind.

The worst you're going to find parents doing in public is flying off the handle, and maybe smacking a kid. Not good, sometimes not excusable, but nothing like the truly destructive abuse you're talking about. Parents do that shit in private.

You're just thrashing around looking for some way to defend an untenable position. Give it up.
Maybe where you are smacking a kid in public is acceptable but in California you can go to jail for it - if it's reported. However, my point about the cameraman at the market is you don't know for sure if he's filming to be a good citizen and watch for child abuse or if he's a pedophile watching the kids. Just like in the terminal you don't know that person with the cell camera is filming the cops out of civic duty or in hopes there's a scuffle to post for the lulz.
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Old 06-05-2011, 05:00 PM   #59 (permalink)
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_...Taser_incident


Cops do this sort of thing. When this incident happened the police told a tissue of lies that was completely contradicted by this video. If it hadn't been for a citizen filming in a public area, that lie would have been accepted by the public.
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Old 06-05-2011, 05:04 PM   #60 (permalink)
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Maybe where you are smacking a kid in public is acceptable but in California you can go to jail for it - if it's reported. However, my point about the cameraman at the market is you don't know for sure if he's filming to be a good citizen and watch for child abuse or if he's a pedophile watching the kids. Just like in the terminal you don't know that person with the cell camera is filming the cops out of civic duty or in hopes there's a scuffle to post for the lulz.
Where the fuck did I ever say that smacking a kid in public is acceptable? And do you know how dim you sound? Let's take baby steps, shall we?

Someone is filming kids and their parents in public. He is either (a) monitoring child abuse, or (b) looking for victims. What's the upside of (a)? Not much. The really gruesome child abuse doesn't take place in public. What's the downside of (b)? Pretty fucking big downside.

Someone is filming on-duty cops in public. He is either (a) filming cops out of civic duty or (b) hoping there's a scuffle to post for the lulz. What's the upside of (a)? Maybe a bad cop gets fired, or goes to jail. Maybe cops think twice about beating on their fellow citizens. Two thumbs up, sez I. What's the downside of (b)? Some cop behaving like an asshole gets embarrassed. Big fucking deal.

Give it the fuck up. Shit, even Chip and I are on the same side on this one.
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Old 06-05-2011, 05:06 PM   #61 (permalink)
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The issue near and dear to my heart wasn't super serious, but it was when NYPD officer, Patrick Pogan took a running tackle at a bicyclist who wasn't breaking any laws ... and then completely falsified the police report. He (at least) lost his job, but didn't get jail time or even community service for his crime.

Still, if citizens didn't catch it on video, the system would have assumed the officer's statements were true and his victim would have wrongfully done a little jail time and had a police record.
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Old 06-05-2011, 05:10 PM   #62 (permalink)
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No, it's not really any different. The police do work for us, and they are sworn to protect and serve. If we don't monitor them and report them when they're violating their oath, who will?
Monitor, yes. Report, yes. Troll, no.

With my analogy of the surveillance camera where I worked my point with that was I wasn't so afraid of being monitored by the management because I was doing the job I was paid to do. The issue was that people who were not in a management role nor had any idea what my full duties were felt they had a say in how I and others at that station do our jobs and doing so quite loudly instead of going to the manager. I'm not a cop nor am I a lawyer and if I witness a problem I'm going to take it to the higher ups rather than post it on YouTube and let the Internet decide whether this is right or wrong. I will also stand by the fantasy that if I speak calmly, keep my hands in view, and don't take off like a frightened deer when a cop or a guard wants to speak with me that I will not get beat up because so far that fantasy is fact in my experience.
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Old 06-05-2011, 05:12 PM   #63 (permalink)
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I will also stand by the fantasy that if I speak calmly, keep my hands in view, and don't take off like a frightened deer when a cop or a guard wants to speak with me that I will not get beat up because so far that fantasy is fact in my experience.
Lucky you.
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Old 06-05-2011, 05:12 PM   #64 (permalink)
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By the way, people interested in this issue should add Carlos Miller's "Photography is not a crime" site to their regular news cycle. Miller has been a great advocate for video rights and has won in court against several attempts to arrest/intimidate him by police for taking video.

Carlos Miller - Photography is Not a Crime | Pixiq
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Old 06-05-2011, 05:15 PM   #65 (permalink)
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Monitor, yes. Report, yes. Troll, no.

With my analogy of the surveillance camera where I worked my point with that was I wasn't so afraid of being monitored by the management because I was doing the job I was paid to do. The issue was that people who were not in a management role nor had any idea what my full duties were felt they had a say in how I and others at that station do our jobs and doing so quite loudly instead of going to the manager. I'm not a cop nor am I a lawyer and if I witness a problem I'm going to take it to the higher ups rather than post it on YouTube and let the Internet decide whether this is right or wrong. I will also stand by the fantasy that if I speak calmly, keep my hands in view, and don't take off like a frightened deer when a cop or a guard wants to speak with me that I will not get beat up because so far that fantasy is fact in my experience.
Yes, but if the "higher ups" are going to be complicit is sweeping abuse under the carpet, then there is no choice but to take it public, as happened in the Dziekanski affair. This happens time and time again, going back to Rodney King when the police present paperwork that says one story, and then video comes out contradicting it. If you're wearing a uniform, and have the right to remove my civil rights on a whim, then I have the right to record you doing your job.
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Old 06-05-2011, 05:35 PM   #66 (permalink)
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Yes, but if the "higher ups" are going to be complicit is sweeping abuse under the carpet, then there is no choice but to take it public, as happened in the Dziekanski affair. This happens time and time again, going back to Rodney King when the police present paperwork that says one story, and then video comes out contradicting it. If you're wearing a uniform, and have the right to remove my civil rights on a whim, then I have the right to record you doing your job.
There's a difference.

If I come to a station and ask for the watch commander and provide footage of apparent abuse and that cop is still on the beat in spite of it then I can say "I brought it to the cops and they did nothing". I'm not going to say, "wow, CNN is going to pay through the nose for the rights" as soon as the camera is turned off and not report it to the higher-ups. Did this guy do so? I don't know. I don't see any evidence he did. All I see is filming of cops and one overreacted to it. He posted it on the internet to say "look what this cop did, he threatened me and I didn't do anything". It's a legitimate complaint. But was he really out to do anything about it or was he just posting it to stir up a reaction?
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Old 06-05-2011, 05:45 PM   #67 (permalink)
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CNN doesn't pay for the rights, no reputable news organization would.

The person threatened is the person who has been wronged, how he chooses to seek amends for that is entirely up to him. If he wants to handle it quietly, that's his choice, he's the wronged party. If he wants to make a big foofarah, that's his perogative as well, he is the victim. Does courtesy dictate that he should talk to the police first? Absolutely, but should courtesy be extended when a representative of that organization said he was "gonna break your fucking face"?
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Old 06-05-2011, 05:47 PM   #68 (permalink)
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There's a difference.

If I come to a station and ask for the watch commander and provide footage of apparent abuse and that cop is still on the beat in spite of it then I can say "I brought it to the cops and they did nothing". I'm not going to say, "wow, CNN is going to pay through the nose for the rights" as soon as the camera is turned off and not report it to the higher-ups. Did this guy do so? I don't know. I don't see any evidence he did. All I see is filming of cops and one overreacted to it. He posted it on the internet to say "look what this cop did, he threatened me and I didn't do anything". It's a legitimate complaint. But was he really out to do anything about it or was he just posting it to stir up a reaction?
You do manage to pack a lot of fail into one paragraph.

Find a cop behaving badly and all you have to do is turn the evidence straight over to the police. Because Officer Friendly will make things right! Yes, that's sure to work!

What the fuck does CNN have to do with anything? No one in this case flogged their wares to CNN. Even the link you provided said CNN might pay $200. Yeah, folks are out on the streets, phone-cams at the ready, waiting for police abuse, because they can retire on that kind of money! Oy!

Let's say he posted it to stir up a reaction. And? The cop threatened him with bodily harm. The guy's under no illusion that the Buffalo transit cops are going to discipline him for that, especially if the video isn't made public. It's on the Buffalo transit police to do something. If the video goes viral and stirs up a reaction, maybe they will. In which case, it's all to the good.

What was your issue again?
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Old 06-05-2011, 05:53 PM   #69 (permalink)
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Does courtesy dictate that he should talk to the police first? Absolutely, but should courtesy be extended when a representative of that organization said he was "gonna break your fucking face"?
Yes. If the cameraman held up his middle finger to the cop in response off view of the camera, he wouldn't have clean hands in the incident. If he posts the video without any intent to directly report that cop, he might as well have.
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Old 06-05-2011, 05:59 PM   #70 (permalink)
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Yes. If the cameraman held up his middle finger to the cop in response off view of the camera, he wouldn't have clean hands in the incident. If he posts the video without any intent to directly report that cop, he might as well have.
So hurting a cop's feelings gives him justification to "break his fucking face"?
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Old 06-05-2011, 06:11 PM   #71 (permalink)
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So hurting a cop's feelings gives him justification to "break his fucking face"?
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I'm telling you personally as a person not as a police officer that if you take my picture again I will break your fucking face. Don't take my picture again.
As a person and as a police officer there's no justificaion for making a threat like that. I'm not disagreeing with that. What I am in disagreement with is the concept of filming cops with the expectation that there will be abuse taking place. What if there isn't? Would that video still be posted?
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Old 06-05-2011, 06:17 PM   #72 (permalink)
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I'll try that the next time I go to the bank, I'll ask them to turn all their cameras off because I have "no expectation" of anything going wrong while I'm in there. Let's see how they feel about that.

The police officer is a civil servant, he has an expectation to act above and beyond reproach.

Let me ask you this, irregardless of how the video was created, should he be disciplined?
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Old 06-05-2011, 06:44 PM   #73 (permalink)
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I'll try that the next time I go to the bank, I'll ask them to turn all their cameras off because I have "no expectation" of anything going wrong while I'm in there. Let's see how they feel about that.

The police officer is a civil servant, he has an expectation to act above and beyond reproach.

Let me ask you this, irregardless of how the video was created, should he be disciplined?
Yes. Absolutely. If no action is taken, make a big deal about that.

In a bank, they will ask you to turn off your camera. Or do you have the expectation that financial transactions are public domain?
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Old 06-05-2011, 06:45 PM   #74 (permalink)
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Camera phones have become ubiquitous in recent years. The wide proliferation of tiny devices which make it possible to film pretty much anything has accompanied a skyrocketing documentation of police abuses. Abuses that they clearly would love to prevent becoming public knowledge at all costs: see, the various threats police officers make about it "being illegal to film a cop," and so on.

There's plenty of precedent for civilians being allowed to film and photograph people and places without permission or consent when they're in the public and I don't see why cops should get a special exemption. Following around filming police officers just waiting to see them do something wrong might seem creepy and petty, but I agree with other comments pointing out that these cops have absolutely no oversight and are actively hostile towards those who do film them doing abusive things. I'm fine with them being filmed when they're out in public the same way I have to tolerate people on the street photographing me.

When one of these cases eventually makes its way to court, if ever the court falls alongside the police in prohibiting them being filmed/photographed while on duty, I can't think of anything clearer to demonstrate what a police state the US has become and will promptly pressure all my immediate friends and family into leaving as soon as they can.
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Old 06-05-2011, 07:06 PM   #75 (permalink)
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There's plenty of precedent for civilians being allowed to film and photograph people and places without permission or consent when they're in the public and I don't see why cops should get a special exemption. Following around filming police officers just waiting to see them do something wrong might seem creepy and petty, but I agree with other comments pointing out that these cops have absolutely no oversight and are actively hostile towards those who do film them doing abusive things. I'm fine with them being filmed when they're out in public the same way I have to tolerate people on the street photographing me.
So do I and I think that's where I am failing to communicate. Thanks, Josh!
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