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Tyche Shepherd · 10-27-2009, 09:11 AM

Two French Flagship Co$ centres have been sentenced to pay fines of over €600,000 after being convicted of "fraud in an organised gang" today by a court in Paris. 4 senior officials were also given suspended sentences of between 18 months and 2 years as well as significant personal fines.

Prosecutors in the Trial also tried to get the organisation banned in France but failed due to a legal loophole

Scientology centres convicted of fraud in France | World news | guardian.co.uk

detrius · 10-27-2009, 09:13 AM

Bad week for Co$.

Nibb Tardis · 10-27-2009, 09:24 AM

For some strange reason, "somebody" managed to slip a stealth change that prohibits judges from dissolving organizations like the Church of Scientology into a larger reform of the judicial system that was voted a few months ago. At the time, nobody noticed the impact of that change on the trial.

After lots of embarrassment and finger pointing, they all seem to agree that it was a mistake and will be changing the law back to the way it was. In the meantime, CoS gets a free pass.

Richie Waves · 10-27-2009, 10:09 AM

Get them out!!! (mormons also)

Aimee Weber · 10-27-2009, 11:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nibb Tardis

For some strange reason, "somebody" managed to slip a stealth change that prohibits judges from dissolving organizations like the Church of Scientology into a larger reform of the judicial system that was voted a few months ago. At the time, nobody noticed the impact of that change on the trial.

After lots of embarrassment and finger pointing, they all seem to agree that it was a mistake and will be changing the law back to the way it was. In the meantime, CoS gets a free pass.

It was actually the European Court of Human Rights that ruled that Russia interfered with freedom of religion by refusing to register two Scientology groups as "religious organizations." This set the precedence that took dissolution off the table in France.

I'm not so sure this is going to change. While just about everybody has a gut feeling that Scientology is not a real religion, it's not easy to arrive at a legal distinction that would allow governments to eject the "bad" religions while preserving the "good" ones. A precedent of allowing courts to shut down a religion because of fraud or other crimes (*cough*childabuse*cough*) would probably start legal holy wars between any faiths that would like to see the other faiths go away.

io Kukulcan · 10-27-2009, 11:54 AM

Why can't the French just kick their ass, like they did with the Huguenots?

Richie Waves · 10-27-2009, 12:00 PM

out out out out OUT I SAID!!11

Tyche Shepherd · 10-27-2009, 12:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by io Kukulcan

Why can't the French just kick their ass, like they did with the Huguenots?

As much as I dispise the Church of Scientology , I wouldn't like to see them suffer the fates of the Huguenots , its thought some 2 to 4 million died due to war, famine or plague in France's Wars of Religion.

Surreal · 10-27-2009, 12:14 PM

CO$ may want to rethink pissing the French off though...

Ceiri · 10-27-2009, 02:19 PM

Does this mean the French can start suing the Christians for fraud? It's not like they can show us any saved souls.

Tess Whitcroft · 10-27-2009, 02:35 PM

Anyone want to bet whether the French courts will ever see a penny of the fine?

Quote:

Tommy Davis, spokesman for the Church of Scientology International, told BBC News that the court had acted "in total violation of the European Convention on Human Rights and French constitutional guarantees on freedom".

The case "fell flat on its face", he said.

"The fines will get thrown out on appeal. We've had similar cases before and in other countries. If it has to go to the court of human rights we're confident we will win there."

Speaking by phone from the US, he said it was a "political gesture" against the organisation, but "Scientology will continue to grow in France".

This does point up a major problem the entire world has. How do you "end" a "religion"? No matter how bad it is, no matter how reprehensible, is it even possible to dispose of one?

Tess

Nibb Tardis · 10-27-2009, 02:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aimee Weber

It was actually the European Court of Human Rights that ruled that Russia interfered with freedom of religion by refusing to register two Scientology groups as "religious organizations." This set the precedence that took dissolution off the table in France.

No, the loophole in question is not related to this. It really is a very convenient mistake of the french Parliament.
French row over reprieve for Scientologists - Justice : news, world | euronews
New FRENCH LAW Blocks $CN's Dissolution Sept. 14, 2009 - alt.religion.scientology | Google Groups

Nibb Tardis · 10-27-2009, 02:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Surreal

CO$ may want to rethink pissing the French off though...

Abolished in France since 1981.

Nibb Tardis · 10-27-2009, 02:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tess Whitcroft

Anyone want to bet whether the French courts will ever see a penny of the fine?

This does point up a major problem the entire world has. How do you "end" a "religion"? No matter how bad it is, no matter how reprehensible, is it even possible to dispose of one?

Tess

Religions must have a legal statute to operate, a bank account, real estate, employees, and so on. You can dissolve their legal existence (either a corporation or a non-profit organization) and you confiscate their assets, just like any corporation or legal structure.

If they don't pay the fine, a judge can order confiscation of their property or seizure of their bank accounts.

Tess Whitcroft · 10-27-2009, 03:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nibb Tardis

Religions must have a legal statute to operate, a bank account, real estate, employees, and so on. You can dissolve their legal existence (either a corporation or a non-profit organization) and you confiscate their assets, just like any corporation or legal structure.

If they don't pay the fine, a judge can order confiscation of their property or seizure of their bank accounts.

While you can, in theory, do all those things, in actual practice they are just not workable.

Take away CoS's "legal" right to operate and they will just continue to operate.

Long before you could do anything to their bank account the money would be in an account in another country that you have no access to.

Real estate? They will just use the homes of their members. Will France start confiscating the homes of all the French Scientologists?

Employees? You mean members? And just what could they legally do to the members?

You might be able to confiscate some assets, but that would be quite difficult when the CoS spreads them around to people and not the CoS.

A religion can actually function without any of those things.

In the case of the CoS you would also need to factor in all their experience and skill at manipulating any social system.

In a battle between France and the CoS I'll put my money on the CoS and give odds.

Tess

Aimee Weber · 10-27-2009, 03:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nibb Tardis

No, the loophole in question is not related to this. It really is a very convenient mistake of the french Parliament.
French row over reprieve for Scientologists - Justice : news, world | euronews
New FRENCH LAW Blocks $CN's Dissolution Sept. 14, 2009 - alt.religion.scientology | Google Groups

Thanks, I missed that.

Surreal · 10-27-2009, 03:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nibb Tardis

Abolished in France since 1981.

I know. It was black humor.

10-27-2009, 09:11 AM	#1 (permalink)
Tyche Shepherd Fortuna vitrea est enjoying the victor's spoils Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: UK Posts: 5,464 My Mood: SL Join Date: 26th April 2007 Awards: 1	French Scientology Centres found guilty of Fraud Two French Flagship Co$ centres have been sentenced to pay fines of over €600,000 after being convicted of "fraud in an organised gang" today by a court in Paris. 4 senior officials were also given suspended sentences of between 18 months and 2 years as well as significant personal fines. Prosecutors in the Trial also tried to get the organisation banned in France but failed due to a legal loophole Scientology centres convicted of fraud in France \| World news \| guardian.co.uk __________________ Vanguard of the LolCatz Revolution This Post was financed by The National LolCatz Archives Clancy Sullivan :Yeah. YEAH! The sultry seamstress of mirth is definitely in charge now. Certified 7.8 on the Official Non-Arbitrary Trout Algorithmic Slut scale A public copy of my Second Life Main Grid Survey Database can be found at http://www.gridsurvey.com - Now with added Second Life Incidents !!

10-27-2009, 09:13 AM	#2 (permalink)
detrius Senior Member notorious subversive Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Germany Posts: 2,303 My Mood:	Bad week for Co$. __________________ "V Pravde net izvestiy, v Izvestiyakh net pravdy."

10-27-2009, 10:09 AM	#4 (permalink)
Richie Waves Joie de vivre! Is Three apples Tall Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Between Iraq and Israel Posts: 8,990 SL Join Date: 27/06/2005	Get them out!!! (mormons also) __________________ My lastfm Oooh, Betty! the cat did a shit in the hat

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10-27-2009, 09:24 AM	#3 (permalink)
Nibb Tardis Member Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: France Posts: 88 SL Join Date: 2004 Business: primOptic eyewear	For some strange reason, "somebody" managed to slip a stealth change that prohibits judges from dissolving organizations like the Church of Scientology into a larger reform of the judicial system that was voted a few months ago. At the time, nobody noticed the impact of that change on the trial. After lots of embarrassment and finger pointing, they all seem to agree that it was a mistake and will be changing the law back to the way it was. In the meantime, CoS gets a free pass.

10-27-2009, 11:54 AM	#6 (permalink)
io Kukulcan Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: the wasatch front Posts: 2,069 My Mood: SL Join Date: 04/2006	Why can't the French just kick their ass, like they did with the Huguenots?

10-27-2009, 12:00 PM	#7 (permalink)
Richie Waves Joie de vivre! Is Three apples Tall Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Between Iraq and Israel Posts: 8,990 SL Join Date: 27/06/2005	out out out out OUT I SAID!!11

10-27-2009, 02:19 PM	#10 (permalink)
Ceiri Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Posts: 837	Does this mean the French can start suing the Christians for fraud? It's not like they can show us any saved souls.

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