Beebo Brink

As an adjunct to the Racism in an Elevator thread, here's a fascinating social experiment on racism.

Shopping While Black: a social experiment

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Phoenix Psaltery

Oh, god, even knowing it wasn't real, I became so infuriated watching the staff mistreat her. When the one girl began crying I teared up. What a tender hearted soul she is.

I would like to think that, had I been there, I would have spoken up and said, "What you are doing is out and out racism and is disgusting and almost certainly illegal. I am going to help her find an attorney and pretty soon she will OWN this fucking store."

P2

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Ayumi

Theres another psychological syndrome at play here, and it isnt racially motivated. The first couple was a good example of obedience to an authority figure. Like what you saw in the Milgram experiment in the 60's.

The guy responds favorably in the way he thinks the person talking to him wants him to respond. It doesnt make him a racist, because its quite possible both answers he gave were true. He could very well have felt bad about the woman being singled out for her race, as well as feeling that race cards do get played a lot when it comes to discrimination in situations.

On the second example at one point the clerk tells the black man and his black wife that they looked upscale and were fine shopping there and she didnt and wasnt. The difference between the 3 black people involved wasnt racially motivated, but instead.. class motivated. Its not exactly the anti-black racism example that ABC is trying to portray. I'm not even sure the reaction of the guy was because she was black, or just because she was being discriminated against infront of him. I kinda get the feeling he would have reacted that way if *anyone* was discriminated against infront of him.. except for maybe like a bum or something?

I dont doubt that it is an issue for black people to be treated like thieves based upon stereotypes, instead of being given the benefit of the doubt like many other ethnic groups.

I just think that the examples they portrayed in this segment were.. poor. The issue seems to be that human beings (or at least Americans) have a problem with being obedient to figures of authority in a situation. Or their unwillingness to stand up for each other in light of injustice.

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Ayumi

There was a *MUCH* better report done by the same guy for ABC News about Hispanic migrant workers who didnt speak english trying to order food at like a taco bell. it was FAR more indepth and the reactions they received from the other customers almost left me in tears with how beautiful and humane they were.

But thats a completely different situation too. You're probably more likely to have your fellow "common" man stand up for you in blue collar America, than you are in a high society upscale boutique. Let me find that video if I can.

Ayumi

Here's the video. I hope you all watch this one, because some of the reactions are.. inspiring. (part 2 is the good part with the good reactions)

PART 1:



PART 2:

Compulsion

while one guy in that video did display blatant racism I wouldn't say that the motivation for not getting involved for alot of the people was due to them being racist, there are many scenarios you could play out with similar results with race being nothing to do with it, people will just go out of their way to not be involved with something that isn't directly affecting them it's the way things have gone. infact while the focus of the video is on a terrible act of racism I don't know that the actual point it's trying to make is clear enough, put a homeless person in the street with an injury and see how many people stop to ask if they need help, it's the same driving force.

edit : the second videos ayumi posted make a much better job of getting the point across.

Asher Bertrand

It happens *routinely*. I worked retail through college and without fail, whenever more than one black person entered the store a manager would tell me to keep an eye on them. I was younger and less willing to stand against it vocally then than I am now, but I knew it was wrong. The issue is not just an unwillingness to speak up, however. Because if the shopper weren't black, it never would have happened in the first place.

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jacqueline trudeau

Published in 1961. Has much really changed in nearly 50 years?

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Bard Jameson

I know that everyone who appears in the broadcast had to be contacted after the fact and had to agree to allow broadcast of the footage that contained them. I wonder if anyone objected to being used for an "experiment" without their knowledge and permission and did not agree to appear. I know I would.

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Pamela Galli

No one has room to object to bigotry unless it includes bigotry against those he disagrees with, religiously, culturally, politically.

Are there those you don't mind seeing beat up on for being/thinking/believing different from the majority, when you are part of the majority?

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Cindy Claveau

The part that pissed me off more than the setup was the fact that none of the other customers said a damned thing.

I couldn't do that. I think I'd be standing right next to that woman and yelling at the store management, telling them how I was going to help spread the word about their unbelievable racism.

I know it happens, but if a black woman dressed nicely comes into a store only a total idiot would turn her money away. Blacks can be wealthy, too, ya know.

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GreenLantern Excelsior

What struck me was that the store employees weren't overtly racist in their comments, so it would have been hard for anyone nearby to know exactly what they were talking about. If the clerk had come right out and said "We usually have problems when black people come into the store," then I think almost anyone would have responded. But for all they knew, the clerk knew the lady personally as a scumbag, or had a police photo of her at the cash register and knew she was a shoplifter. I've been burned so many times by jumping to conclusions that I'm very cautious about it now.

The "I'm afraid of what you're going to say" girl seemed to be a bit of a prima donna. Rather than standing up to the store clerk, she started crying.

Fade Languish

Great book, read it many times.

If only I could remember which bugger I lent my copy to, and hasn't returned it.

Cindy Claveau

You mean like "People like you", and "this isn't like your stores in Harlem"?

They were racist as hell without ever using derogatory terms, but yet still every bit as racist as if they'd used the "N" word.

Fade Languish

I can't see how one could miss it myself.

GreenLantern Excelsior

Exactly. "People like you" could mean "convicted shoplifters" and "this isn't like your stores in Harlem" could mean "security here is better than the stores in Harlem where you got picked up for shoplifting."

Even a store clerk is innocent until proven guilty.

Tracer Graves

umm, sorta. While giving somebody the benefit of the doubt is great and all, you're just being obtuse. Also, the 'beyond a shadow of a doubt' burden of proof is for criminal proceedings with state-enforced punishments. In civil suits, the burden of proof is called a 'preponderance of evidence,' meaning that it is more likely than not somebody did something. In this case, we are simply witnessing the actual behavior of store clerks saying 'we don't come to your neighborhood.' The racism is thinly veiled and if you think it is more likely that language means something about the quality of security, then you are being willfully ignorant just because you can.

jacqueline trudeau

Probably also thinks it's appropriate to call them niggers because that's what the brothers do.

AshaSekayi Ra

Thanks for showing the video Beebo.

I'd agree that the experiment didn't prove that everyone who remained silent was a racist. It just confirms the problem that exists in the world where people don't get involved when it "isn't their problem." Frankly, that's the saddest and truest point made by the video.

As for the man that used "race card", it is clear to me that his statement uttered when he thought he was in secrecy was his true feelings, not the one he stated when he knew a camera was running.

On a good note, it was great to see that not only some blacks did the right thing and walked out of the store. But, other races were proactive and made their feelings known where it counts ... the pocketbook.

Ann Launay

I hate to admit it but, depending on the circumstances, I might not either. I'm not very confrontational in RL and, unless it involved someone I knew, I might just make sure I had the clerk's name, leave quietly, and lodge a complaint later. And it wouldn't be because I didn't care, but just because it's so difficult for me to draw attention to myself in tense situations.

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Tracer Graves

I don't know about that, but I will say he's effectively defending racism regardless of whether he fully realizes it.

Sean Gorham

Wow.

It really angered me, watching parts of this. I'd like to think I would stand up for these people, were I in the same situation. I've never had to deal with this in real life, though, so I can only hope I would do the right thing.

ETA: Growing up in Central Maine during the 70s and 80s, there was almost no cultural diversity. Given that I'm a middle-class white guy I was never exposed to different cultures in school. It wasn't until I got to college (and a different state) before I experienced the wide variety of races and cultures in the world.

This is in part why I gravitated towards having a black avatar. I guess it's a subconscious nod to John Griffin's experiment all those years ago.

Ann Launay

OK, I may not be very brave about confrontation, but this is a ridiculous lot of excuse making. I've worked quite a bit of retail and there is never a valid reason to speak to someone that way. Yes, there are some 'types' you watch more closely - in most of the places I worked, that was more apt to be white kids in the 13-15 range than an adult of any particular skin tone - but if someone is asked to leave the store, it should be done politely, quietly and, most of all, be based on their actions, not on past actions of others with whom they may have some traits in common..."We've had issues with you (the individual) in the past and I'm going to have to ask you to leave" versus "We've had issues with your type in the past, so I'm going to have to ask you to leave." If they refuse to go, you call the police. If you recognize them as a known shoplifter, you call the police. If you catch them stuffing half the store in their bag, you call the police. Whatever you do, you maintain your civility and decorum and don't go out of your way to shame them.

And if you seriously believe the things she said, and the manner in which she said them, weren't overtly racist, then you're deluding yourself. Anyone who was close enough to overhear the conversation would have known exactly what she meant.

I'm guessing she's bad at confrontation too. She was upset, there was nothing she could really do about the situation, and the clerk wouldn't get out of her face. And, for the record, a lot of people cry from anger and frustration, as well as sorrow.

Argent Stonecutter

I don't think so. I don't even like watching assholes getting beat up. Even when I can see they asked for it. OK, I know they're not a recognized ethnic group, but they're the only group I could really say I hate. It does limit the kind of movies I can enjoy.

Beebo Brink

What was the worst that could have happened to anyone who objected, as some did? The guard could ask them to leave? Wow, big penalty there. And yet, despite the lack of serious consequences, most people don't want to make waves or cause a scene. This is especially true of the higher economic classes, for whom unrowdy shows of emotion are distastefully crude. I think the worst sin in my mother's book was "making a public spectacle," quite different in perspective from my working class father.

I'm really, really, really not trying to Godwin this thread (really), but the group dynamic of fear in standing out from the crowd or standing up to authority to protect a minority was one of the underlying reasons the Nazis managed to take care of the "Jewish problem." It's the psychological dynamic that plays to any authoritarian regime, even when there isn't the threat of being pistol whipped or dragged off to prison for having the courage to create a confrontation.

If you harass someone who looks like a member of the dominant group, acts like them, then you're hitting too close to home and they may be motivated to defend Us, out of self-interest. Creating an underclass, a scapegoat, and then targeting them for official harassment encourages people to distance themselves from someone they already consider to be The Other. Then gradually, as they put distance and find excuses for the abuse ("They do tend to be the ones who..."), people become innured and even accepting of the situation, protecting their own self-image as "nice" people.

I tend to go ballistic in situations like this, and become all too vocal, because I already know I'm The Other and have a deep sense of identification with being picked on in that way. My partner would probably have ended up in jail for physically assaulting that security guard with a clothes rack.