Hypatia Callisto

yep, and there's no big crime wave on the streets of Singapore either. Singapore has one of the lowest crime rates in the world with an ethnically diverse population, and gasp, Muslims. Is there a point to your digression?

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Max Herzog

only the point that says "hey! look at me, I'm a right wing extremist! Aren't I dangerous and controversial"

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Hypatia Callisto

and I would add retarded, because what is clear is that countries with high living standards are economically well off and peaceful, and this isn't really connected to their ethnicity. It's connected strongly to their economic philosophy. You don't have to be white to believe in free trade and a minimum standard of living.

Lo Jacobs

What I meant by "homogeneous" was just that most people in Denmark, Sweden, Finland and the like are white people with similar backgrounds. I didn't mean any offense. I thought it was a given that when you throw people of different cultures together, there can be friction. God knows LA sees enough of that.

I'm not trying to argue that people should stay in their own countries, I'm just saying that this burqa law is a result of people from different cultures coming together. It is not the only result. I think that multiculturalism is a good thing.

My impression of this anti-immigration sentiment is built on anecdotes from friends and a detailed opinion from my brother, who lived in Denmark for a time, and various articles that I've read in the past few years. I do know that when I visited Denmark I felt completely out of place, being surrounded by tall pale-skinned blonds with good noses.

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Hypatia Callisto

Corruption Perceptions Index - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

oh and FYI, Singapore beat Finland on the Corruption Perception Index. Muah. Ha. Ha.

Hong Kong is way high up there too, beating out the USA, France and oh yeah, Belgium. (and that means Flanders got beat too) What does that say to me? Countries who believe in the power of commerce and a social net for the people in their country, and NOT ATTACKING NEIGHBORS, are better places to live.

well DUH.

The "no war" part is important, because the countries at the top of the list, nations such as Sweden, New Zealand, and Denmark, are not known to go on foreign adventures at all. War happy philosophies make a country poorer, no matter what wing of politics it comes from. War is really an evil, sometimes necessary in defence, never defensible when taken in aggression. Avoid when possible.

Ceiri

You're wrong, but not for the reason you're speculating. The burka dehumanizes women, which opens them up to incrreased discrimination, abuse and rape.

Aodhan McDunnough

It's not the the burqa that dehumanizes. Again, at the core, it's their laws that do it. Take away those laws and take away the obligation to wear it and the burqa will not dehumanize.

It's not the cloth, it's the law.

Hypatia Callisto

It's both. The cloth is a result of the law. Muslim countries with more liberal laws do not have women wearing burqas.

Besides as I have demonstrated, it's not mainstream Islam. It's the more radical sects, which are clearly in conflict with the spirit of French law and culture. Insisting on separate treatment and separate laws, which dehumanise women in Western countries, who should have equal treatment under the law, and not to be forced under Sharia.

Aodhan McDunnough

I agree that its existence is the result of the law. However what I'm saying is that in the absence of that law, such a garment, by itself, does not dehumanize. People dehumanize, perceptions do, laws do, cultures do.

The farthest I'll go is to say burqa dehumanizes in the same sense as the bikini and the corset. In fact by itself the corset dehumanizes more because they were physically painful to wear if you weren't svelte.

My simple rule here was to ask the question "Can I imagine someone, a normal person, not being obligated by law, actually wanting to wear that on a daily basis?" and the answer was "yes."

Hypatia Callisto

Except the bikini and corset weren't symbols of a culture that sets off suicide bombs, and that's why there's an issue over the burqa.

Look, nobody is banning normal abaya, or headscarfs, or the chador. They are banning a garment only a small fraction of Muslim women ever wear.

France is sending a signal, sure. If you're part of the loony fringe, you're not welcome.

Aodhan McDunnough

And that's related to what I'm driving at. It's not the cloth. It's the symbolism. The cloth by itself does not dehumanize, it's people that have attached the symbol.

My point was that the cloth does not dehumanize and it is only that fundamentalist law that gives the "power" of dehumanization.

The burqa poses a danger primarily because it can as easily hide a man or anyone who has explosives strapped on. Given how loose the clothes are, that's a LOT of explosives. 100lbs of explosives is easy to cover with a burqa.

So if France we're to argue to get rid of bukas, they ought to keep it to issues of safety (i.e. ability to hide explosives). In my case I would have banned burqas from the machine shop, but only because internationally accepted safety rules say "no loose clothing or jewelry."

As for the signal, politics is so messed up I don't want to go farther in. Secular vs Fundamentalist (any religion) is an explosion waiting to happen.

Hypatia Callisto

let me also state, that the corset and bikini EMPHASIZES the shape and curves of a woman's body. Yes the corset could cause damage but it only really did in the upper classes - lower class women couldn't afford to lace the same way.

the dehumanisation comes in that the burqa tries to make a woman a non-person, you can't see her face, or even to talk to her. It is a garment from the cultures of Afghanistan and Pakistan, it is surely not worn anywhere else.

Niqab can be worn that way, and I see they want to ban it too - but again, that's because you can't SEE or COMMUNICATE with the person.

Also last point, women in Arab countries do not wear the abaya or the niqab indoors - it's a garment to be worn outside. I've been in Egypt and I can tell you straight off, the only women I ever saw in a full length niqab and abaya were the very poor. None of the Muslim women I saw in the affluent areas wore these garments, they wore pricey abaya and headscarfs, often embroidered and trimmed colorfully, sometimes even with lead crystal rhinestones embroidered into them for evening wear. They sure as heck weren't "modest" in some ways, they definitely showed off wealth. Underneath that they would wear pricey high street fashion.

Hypatia Callisto

well, the people who made the symbol intended it that way. Women should not be seen, and when they are, they should not be paid attention to.

That concept is completely at odds with Western culture. It's even at odds more and more with Muslim culture.

So France is saying "when in France, you have to respect our ideals - and part of those ideas is that men and women have equal rights in the society" It's not rocket science.

France is also saying, you can't recognise the person in this garment, and therefore it's also a security risk.

Well, that's what France is doing. They are sticking to the fundamentalist attire. They are not attacking normal attire of Muslim women.

That's a copout argument. When discussing political issues, you have to discuss all the reasons. France is not trying to tell Muslims they can't practice their religion. They are just saying they can't practice it in a way that's not in keeping with French values about human rights - some of those being the right to not be blown up, and the right to have peripheral vision when crossing the street. That's fair, IMO.

Joshua Nightshade

The more mainstream sects have a more liberal view of it, yes, and the radical ones (like the Taliban pre-Iraq war) use it to control women, but women covering themselves in large part in public is not confined to just the crazy parts of Islam.

Hypatia Callisto

Of course not, but its important to understand the Burqa and Niqab are not normal garments. I see Turks every day and they are not commonly worn at all. Most Muslim women I see wear headscarf and long sleeved shirts and long pants. Most Turks do not cover like the Arabs from the Arabian peninsula, or *some* Pakistanis and *some* Afghanis do. Most Muslim women just wear the headscarf and dress modestly.

Khamudy

This is entirely a tangent, but the burqa predates Islam. It is thought to have come from the Mesopotamian-Persian border region and was originally a symbol of the nobility, since only noble women could afford to purchase so much material and were the only women who could practically wear such items (as they didn't perform manual labour like the rest of the women in society).

A story fom Afghanistan says that at some point a king decreed that the outfit was not 'modern' enough for his wives and high ranking women of the court and they, in an act of charity, gave all their burqas to women from the poorer classes, who then took to wearing them.

I certainly understand the reasoning behind a legal ban, but I can't help but feel that the way to promote secularism and create a liberal religious atmosphere isn't by using the law and the police to force the issue. I think it just ends up politicising the clothing, which is what the periodic fuss about headscarves has pretty much done. Part of me thinks that the time and money spent on the legislation perhaps could have been better used to improve the services and coverage of women's shelters and the legal protection available to women who actively choose to turn their back on fundamentalist traditions and become at risk as a result.

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Hypatia Callisto

Well, I think that if they ban the burqa, they should affirm the right to wear the headscarf simultaneously. If they word it in a way that makes it clear you are unable to determine the identity of someone or if you're wearing an identity concealing garment on the street while not engaged in the activity it was designed for - I really do not see the issue. They could apply it to everything, even ski masks

The US went through something like this at one point with a woman who insisted on wearing a niqab in a drivers license photo. It was really pretty stupid, if you ask me.

Eirik

I've already brought up many times that I don't hate all muslims and don't believe they're all bad. Only the ones who enter Europe.

I've never argued that Belgium isn't a corrupt nation. The British government with all their scandals can still learn a thing or two from the socialist party here, who have made clientelism and nepotism from the lowest to the highest echelons of society into their trademark.

Then Flanders should be a very good place to live. And it actually has been made out several times to be that way. For the natives at least.

As an isolationist I believe war is totally fubar'd. Not because of some silly pacifist notions though. But because I believe our interests end where our nation's borders lie.

That kind of stuff happens every week here.

So when my license needs to be renewed, I'm wearing one of these for obvious reasons.



(that is: religious reasons + making it very clear how retarded the system is)

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Hypatia Callisto

The immigrants are usually the more motivated to innovate. Great nations are those who have been the most committed traders, a point you continually miss. You haz it bassackwards and missed the point. But this should be no surprise.

Let me say it once more with feeling.

IDEAS, TRADE AND INNOVATION NOT RACE, WAR AND HISTORICISM MAKE COUNTRIES GREAT.

Beezle Warburton

I don't care what religion foreigners are.

As long as they open restaurants where I can eat their cooking.

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Aimee Weber

UPDATE: Al-Qaeda warns France of revenge for burka stance

Qaeda warns France of revenge for burka stance

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Eboni Khan

You forgot to add the Muahahahaahaha to that quote Aimee.

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Aimee Weber

I didn't see it in the original article.

io Kukulcan

new to this thread, but I don't think God ever told Mohammed to write down that women have to be covered.
it's not in the Qur'an.
it isn't a religious thing, it's a cultural thing.

correct me if I'm wrong.

Allah hu akbar!

Aimee Weber

That's my understanding. The last line of that article mentions this too: