Lo Jacobs

I apologize -- I should have used more sensitive wording. I do not believe that all French people are racist or intolerant, and I don't think you are However, I do think there is a significant chunk that is -- lots of Americans are racist and intolerant, after all. We could, for instance, consider the controversial nature of a number of laws in America aimed at accomplishing similar goals to the one I believe the burqa law is attempting.

I am aware, though, of a growing sentiment in Europe against immigration, and not simply due to Eirik -- I think it's a trend over there, and I'm happy that you're living in such an accepting place.

One reason that socialism works so well in Denmark, Sweden, Finland etc is because the population is largely homogeneous -- any reshuffling of the deck is bound to upset at least a few people.

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Aodhan McDunnough

No it doesn't. The situation being worse does not mean the burqas do not function. They do function.

If the burqa does not reduce the arousal level in a man then how will you explain men being more titilated by women in bikinis and revealing clothes than with frumpy clothes?

Fact is that less cover = generally more arousal. THAT is where I say it makes sense.

The situation being worse is like a glass of water putting out a fire. If the fire is small, the fire is out. If the fire is much larger, the water will STILL have an effect, but we will not see the same results as what happened with the smaller fire.

While I will agree that burqas are a part of that repression, their contribution is insignificant (think of frumpy clothes) compared to the demands of the culture in terms of purity in everything.

I will agree with your statement that is it is a problem if someone can back up that frumpy clothes increases libido.

Why do we hear about priests in sex scandals? It's not the clothes, it's the fact they're not allowed to have sex.

Max Herzog

You'd be surprised, but 10% of the population of Sweden is first or second generation immigrant (including me).

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Govi

Arggh! How can people be so narrow minded and stupid?!! What, oh What, please tell me, is the difference between a nun's habit, a priest's cassock, and a devout Muslim woman's burqa? A veil? I have hats with veils that my mother wore when they were the fashion. No, it's religion. To paraphrase Voltaire, I will defend to the death anyone's right to wear her (or even his) burqa, though I dislike the garment and disapprove of the place in society for women that it evokes for me.

Well, at least they are talking about it first. Maybe cooler heads will prevail.

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Isabeau Imako

If in a region, all women were forced to wear frumpy clothes, it wouldn't take long for frumpy clothes to become titillating, as in ''I wonder what she's wearing (hiding) underneath that frumpiness...'' Why do you think there are 'sexy' burqa pictures out there. Covering up can be thought just as arousing as showing all, like a challenge.

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Aaachou!

Lucifer Baphomet

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Aodhan McDunnough

While you can make a burqa arousing (as I did also mentioned in an earlier post) it is still the general case that burqas do reduce arousal, and that is my point.

As for "I wonder what she's hiding" ... I'd say no different from what we have elsewhere. I mean even bikinis and thongs get undressed by the eyes. Undressing with the eyes is a given everywhere.

As for frumpy clothes becoming titilating, I do believe there is a point where everyone's going to go bleh. Of course Rule 34 states there will be exceptions.

Isabeau Imako

Agreed. That's why I don't think they function as a deterent, especially in places where the majority of the women wear them. You have a point, though, when it comes to places where they are a minority.

Hypatia Callisto

Iranians mostly dont wear burqas, not even in Iran. They wear the chador outside in Iran and the hijab (the common headscarf) most everywhere else. They cover their hair.

The burqa I always understood to be a head to toe garment with only a screen to see through. A man could as easily hide under it as a woman can. This may be a terrorism measure.

Burqa - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The niqab when worn with an abaya is similar, and might be included

Niq�b - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I can see why they are banning that. They're cracking down on the fundies. They are not banning headscarves though. No, Muslims do not wear niqab or burqa except the fundamentalists. I see Muslims every single day in the country next door to France, and I only very rarely see a Muslim woman in a niqab or a burqa.

This is chador, and is worn in Iran. It's more common with the Shia. Shia women do not wear burqas as far as I know.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Women_in_shiraz_2.jpg

Chador - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Kalkan_market_2.JPG

This is what most Muslims wear and I dont see a ban coming on it anytime soon. The common headscarf.

Now, abayas are very common as well, and I see women in them a lot, but heck they can be ultrafashionable. The Turkish women in my town usually have pretty colorful ones. I seriously doubt anyone is banning the abaya, especially not its more modern forms. There are websites devoted to abaya fashions.

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Lucifer Baphomet

I gottaadmit...

Omani burqas are cool, in a kinda star wars way

Aodhan McDunnough

I think even in places where it is common it serves as a deterrent, albeit it's gonna be weaker. However its weakness as a deterrent I believe will be less about its commonness than it is the fact that such areas would likely be more repressed.

I have to agree also on the terrorist angle (i.e. a burqa could be hiding a man).

Hypatia Callisto

she's wearing a niqab tho

her abaya is pretty, and a good example of what I was saying just before... abayas are a fashion movement all of their own.

Aimee Weber

Actually this is a bit of a tangent, but I really dislike the term "religious freedom." Hear me out ...

There are things in this world that are benign or neutral. People should have the freedom to do those things regardless of the reason, religious or otherwise. There are other things in this world that are abusive or harmful, and those are the things we don't and shouldn't have the freedom to do ... regardless why we do it. To specify religious freedom as a special kind of freedom rather than just plain old fashion freedom asserts special exceptions afforded to religion to do things we would normally consider harmful or abusive in any other context.

I was, of course, kidding about encasing my son from head to toe in a leather bodysuit in the name of gaining family love and approval ... but unless you bring religion into it, there is no way a sane person could regard my idea as anything other than child abuse ... even if my son eventually WANTS to wear the bizarre fetish gear after years of my sadistic mothering.

This is either a good thing to do to people, or a bad thing to do to them. Religion has nothing to do with it.

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Chip Midnight

I don't think it's that cut and dry. If skimpy clothing were the norm people would be desensitized to it, but covering women completely makes them forbidden fruit, and the forbidden is often more alluring than the norm. I think it could be reasonably argued that the burqa contributes to the objectification of women by propagating the myth that without it men wouldn't be able to control themselves, the logic of which is infantile.

I regularly hang out at a strip club and have for years. I know a lot of people there. It's kinda my Cheers. The women I know there I've seen fully nude so often that seeing them in street clothes is far more alluring to me, and I'm usually more sexually attracted to the bartenders and waitresses because there's still some mystery there.

Aimee Weber

A side of Chip I never knew!!!

Hypatia Callisto

I think this explains why old-fashioned burlesque, wild costuming and dance is making a comeback. Nude isnt as interesting.

Lucifer Baphomet

BURQAS IN SPAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAACE

Raindrop Drinkwater

Thanks, Lo.

I've calmed down a lot since I wrote my last post (I treated myself to some Buffy goodness, yay!). I understand it's a, uh, misunderstanding.

And the racism issues are real, and awfully complex. It doesn't just go one way, either.

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Hypatia Callisto

The Telegraph seems to have a much more complete article

France to consider banning the burka - Telegraph

as I said, they are targeting the head to foot covering. NOT general islamic dress.

Isabeau Imako

The traditional wedding dress (outfit) is a form of burqa. I wonder if they will make laws on how see through the veil should be, etc.

Personally, I never cared much for wedding attire. Always found it to be silly and out of date.

Hypatia Callisto

you can see through it, no? You can't see through a sheet around someone's head. The fundamentalist abaya and niqab combination looks like



I suspect that they are going after the fundamentalist versions of these sorts of attire, and not the more liberalised. Which is like



That's pretty sassy.

Notice the girls watching the show also do not have their faces covered. This pic was taken in Dubai.

Raindrop Drinkwater

N°2 is hot! She looks like a medieval princess.

Lo Jacobs

Just curious, what was it you disagreed with?

Darkley

The homogenous population comment and the against immigration part.

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Eirik

When I lived in Finland, I hardly saw any crime. Some pushing and shoving late at night in bars, but that was easily settled by bouncers, without police. It's the only country where I haven't felt the need to be armed when I walk through the streets of "bad parts" of town (in as much as they have bad parts of town in Finland), at 3 AM, drunk.

Of course, the only immigrants I met in Finland were much like me. Legal ones with higher education, mostly Europeans and some Americans. That goes a far way to explain the peaceful situation there.

People always find it weird how someone who's stayed in 15 countries can be a right-wing extremist. Well, I've seen what works and what doesn't work. And Finland in all its purity, works wonders.

(though Darkley is right, it's not an entirely homogenous population. You got Sami, Swedes, Central Finns, Karelians, ... Still, those groups are at least connected with each other through history. Not like the skraelings who are taking over Europa nowadays)

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