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Lucifer Baphomet · 06-20-2009, 01:38 PM

Ever noticed lots of women in Burqas make the most of their eyes?

Ceiri · 06-20-2009, 01:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aodhan McDunnough

Off on a minor tangent. The burqa is supposed to prevent men from getting tempted. Makes sense to me because arousal is not symmetrical. Men are easier aroused and need only visual stimuli. Women in general can "hold it in" much better.

IMO, this is the kind of thinking that's so reprehensible in the first place. If blatantly excuses men from needing to exercise any sort of self-control whatsoever, and places the blame for their bad behavior on women.

Shame on you.

Lo Jacobs · 06-20-2009, 01:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aimee Weber

I have a Jewish friend at the dog park. She covers her head with a baseball cap.

I'm not seeing the similarities.

Your Jewish friend with a baseball cap is not the same as the Jews in Hollywood who wear long skirts in 90-degree heat and look vaguely like Amish people.

Some of the women look like they have their heads uncovered -- they're actually wearing wigs.

I understand that you feel that these women have been indoctrinated into regarding themselves as inferior, which I agree with, but it's still freedom of religious expression, and I believe that wearing a burqa, while the reasoning behind it is not something I agree with, is not something that should be legislated, in any way.

Aimee Weber · 06-20-2009, 01:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Joshua Nightshade

There's no similarities between what Orthodox Jewish women are required to wear and a baseball cap either.

Come on Aimee, you live in freaking New York City for god's sake.

Eh. I'm not going to defend one religion's wacky dress code over another so Meh I say. It's all stupid.

But burka's are at the top of the list for wacky & oppressive. They should all knock off this foolishness but burkas ought to be the first to go.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Joshua Nightshade

Incidentally I went to school with a girl from Iran who was rather devoutly Muslim as well as a lesbian (out to her family) who wore a burqa because she felt it was a symbol of her beliefs and heritage. I didn't agree with her, but it was her right, and nobody could act like it wasn't something she had forced on her when her parents had her girlfriend over for dinner all the time.

The anecdote I'm looking for is "I knew a woman raised in Kansas who felt comfortable choosing whatever she wanted to wear ... but when she turned 25 she suddenly decided burkas were really really nice."

No, you don't put that crap on without brainwashing.

Lucifer Baphomet · 06-20-2009, 01:41 PM

Not only is a burqa ban anti muslim...

IT'S ANTI AMERICAN

Joshua Nightshade · 06-20-2009, 01:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aimee Weber

Eh. I'm not going to defend one religion's wacky dress code over another so Meh I say. It's all stupid.

But burka's are at the top of the list for wacky & oppressive. They should all knock off this foolishness but burkas ought to be the first to go.

The anecdote I'm looking for is "I knew a woman raised in Kansas who felt comfortable choosing whatever she wanted to wear ... but when she turned 25 she suddenly decided burkas were really really nice."

No, you don't put that crap on without brainwashing.

Islam, while not as bad as strict Christianity, is not really favorable to homosexuality in general, much less the lesbian variant. If you knew my friend you'd have a really hard time reconciling her religious beliefs with her very liberal mannerisms, sexuality least of it. If it was brainwashing, she somehow managed to be comfortable with herself in all other aspects that Islam traditionally prevents women from showing in public while being whacked out on that particular thing. I'm gonna go with Occam's razor and say nah on that.

Aodhan McDunnough · 06-20-2009, 01:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ceiri

IMO, this is the kind of thinking that's so reprehensible in the first place. If blatantly excuses men from needing to exercise any sort of self-control whatsoever, and places the blame for their bad behavior on women.

Shame on you.

I didn't say I liked it or approved of it. I only said it made sense, as in it works.

You've been around long enough. I do hope you notice I tend to talk more technical. I usually stay away from moralistic aspects.

Ceiri · 06-20-2009, 01:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aodhan McDunnough

I didn't say I liked it or approved of it. I only said it made sense, as in it works.

You've been around long enough, you should know me better. I talk technical.

Fair enough.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aodhan McDunnough

I didn't say I liked it or approved of it. I only said it made sense, as in it works.

Except that it doesn't work. Muslim women are regularly raped

Isabeau Imako · 06-20-2009, 01:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aodhan McDunnough

Off on a minor tangent. The burqa is supposed to prevent men from getting tempted. Makes sense to me because arousal is not symmetrical. Men are easier aroused and need only visual stimuli. Women in general can "hold it in" much better.

The irony is when I last visited Thailand I spotted a woman, a mother I think, in a burqa in a McDonalds. What caught my attention was that despite the near-plainness and thoroughness of the dress she was still alluring. BTW, she wasn't even slim.

I guess middle eastern women are just so damned alluring that they have to be covered up.

Well, that's just it, isn't it?
A woman should completely disappear if she doesn't want to
'deliberately' arouse a man. ''Cover your head, you wanton!''

ETA: I know you weren't agreeing with the reasoning behind the wearing of burqas. Just added to your quote...

Still, shouldn't be illigal.

Joshua Nightshade · 06-20-2009, 01:47 PM

You guys are missing Aodhan's point.

The burqa is because women are beautiful and pure while men are lecherous perverts who can't be trusted. It's not a matter of deliberately arousing someone or not, it's actually rather insulting to men in the sense of "this is why you can't have nice things." The Koran is pretty harsh on guys and the burqa is meant to protect women from guys who would turn into warebeasts if they saw them.

It's a bit twisted and obviously the sense has been warped tremendously from its original incarnation. Islam wasn't such a patriarchal religion as it is today, what you see now is a perversion for political control much the same way as what's happened in the United States with neo-Christianity.

Aimee Weber · 06-20-2009, 01:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Joshua Nightshade

Islam, while not as bad as strict Christianity, is not really favorable to homosexuality in general, much less the lesbian variant. If you knew my friend you'd have a really hard time reconciling her religious beliefs with her very liberal mannerisms, sexuality least of it. If it was brainwashing, she somehow managed to be comfortable with herself in all other aspects that Islam traditionally prevents women from showing in public while being whacked out on that particular thing. I'm gonna go with Occam's razor and say nah on that.

This doesn't really refute my point. She was raised in Iran, no doubt indoctrinated in Muslim culture, but her sexual identity was too overwhelming for her to comply completely with what was demanded of her (and I bet she drives cars too.) So she abandoned that part of her religion that she could not comply with, yet continued to comply with that part of her religion which didn't interfere with her sexuality.

Richie Waves · 06-20-2009, 01:50 PM

It should be pointed out that the Quran does not once mention the Burqa.. infact it only stresses that both men and women should dress modestly in public..

it also says that there should be no compulsion in Religion

Aodhan McDunnough · 06-20-2009, 01:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ceiri

Except that it doesn't work. Muslim women are regularly raped

Too many factors for this one. But I would chalk this one up to primarily the high level of sexual repression, as in keeping everyone from having sex, and reducing all forms of sexual expression. Note that someone noticed that sex crimes (somewhere in the US was it?) went down the more porn there was.

A sexually repressed way of life such as that will evolve various devices to help maintain it and IMO the burqa would have been one of those devices. in that context it does work because without it, the rape situation might actually be worse. The problem IMO is the level of repression of sex and expression in general. It's not necessarily a misogynistic issue as one were everyone is repressed.

You repress something ... expect explosions.

Joshua Nightshade · 06-20-2009, 01:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aimee Weber

This doesn't really refute my point. She was raised in Iran, no doubt indoctrinated in Muslim culture, but her sexual identity was too overwhelming for her to comply completely with what was demanded of her. So she abandoned that part of her religion that she could not comply with, yet continued to comply with that part of her religion which didn't interfere with her sexuality.

No, she was from Iran, she'd moved to the US when she was a baby. She was raised here, we went to school together in New Orleans (which is hardly a hotbed of Muslim expats) and her family was very supportive even though they were also very traditional.

This anecdote is growing its own legs though, I recognize she's a pretty extreme case and most women in, say, Afghanistan are not doing it of their own free will. I wanted to point out though that not everyone is brainwashed, and even if they are, this sort of ban won't help women. The ones terrorized into wearing it will still wear it because the fear of their husbands and the things you listed before are more worrying than a fine from a non-Muslim cop for breaking the law.

Isabeau Imako · 06-20-2009, 01:53 PM

I just don't see how banning it will make woman reconsider wearing a burqa. They have to come to that realization on their own. By forcing them to comply to our sense of what is 'right', you risk alienating the ones who you are trying to help.

Joshua Nightshade · 06-20-2009, 01:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Richie Waves

It should be pointed out that the Quran does not once mention the Burqa.. infact it only stresses that both men and women should dress modestly in public..

it also says that there should be no compulsion in Religion

The word burqa, specifically, no.

The concept hijab, explicitly:

"And say to the believing women that they cast down their looks and guard their private parts and do not display their ornaments except what appears thereof, and let them wear their head-coverings over their bosoms, and not display their ornaments except to their husbands or their fathers, or the fathers of their husbands, or their sons, or the sons of their husbands, or their brothers, or their brothers' sons, or their sisters' sons, or their women, or those whom their right hands possess, or the male servants not having need (of women), or the children who have not attained knowledge of what is hidden of women; and let them not strike their feet so that what they hide of their ornaments may be known; and turn to Allah all of you, O believers! so that you may be successful."

"O Prophet! Enjoin your wives, your daughters, and the wives of true believers that they should cast their outer garments over their persons (when abroad) That is most convenient, that they may be distinguished and not be harassed."

Aodhan McDunnough · 06-20-2009, 01:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Richie Waves

It should be pointed out that the Quran does not once mention the Burqa.. infact it only stresses that both men and women should dress modestly in public..

it also says that there should be no compulsion in Religion

Sounds like what is happening in Christianity (including, and maybe emphasis on Catholicism) also. (facepalm) now you know why I'm so happy I was schooled by Jesuits.

Chip Midnight · 06-20-2009, 01:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Joshua Nightshade

You guys are missing Aodhan's point.

The burqa is because women are beautiful and pure while men are lecherous perverts who can't be trusted. It's not a matter of deliberately arousing someone or not, it's actually rather insulting to men in the sense of "this is why you can't have nice things." The Koran is pretty harsh on guys and the burqa is meant to protect women from guys who would turn into warebeasts if they saw them.

Degradation is a hallmark of many if not most religions which convince people that they are lowly, sinful, without self control, guilty for the sins of their forebears, and in need of salvation. Religion is marketed the same way beauty products are. "You're ugly and you stink, but don't worry, our product can fix you!"

Lo Jacobs · 06-20-2009, 01:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ceiri

Except that it doesn't work. Muslim women are regularly raped

So are a lot of other women.

Aimee Weber · 06-20-2009, 01:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Joshua Nightshade

No, she was from Iran, she'd moved to the US when she was a baby. She was raised here, we went to school together in New Orleans (which is hardly a hotbed of Muslim expats) and her family was very supportive even though they were also very traditional.

This anecdote is growing its own legs though, I recognize she's a pretty extreme case and most women in, say, Afghanistan are not doing it of their own free will. I wanted to point out though that not everyone is brainwashed, and even if they are, this sort of ban won't help women. The ones terrorized into wearing it will still wear it because the fear of their husbands and the things you listed before are more worrying than a fine from a non-Muslim cop for breaking the law.

Well I'll concede the point and go back to my original statement that in an ideal world, it would only be illegal to force a woman to wear a burka. It's just so very difficult to determine if a woman actually enjoys being in the thing or if her consent is the result of relentless religious indoctrination bordering on abuse.

No choice is ever cut-and-dry but I think the Islamic women of France will benefit more than they will be harmed by such a ban, even if things could get tumultuous in the short term.

Joshua Nightshade · 06-20-2009, 01:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chip Midnight

Degradation is a hallmark of many if not most religions which convince people that they are lowly, sinful, without self control, guilty for the sins of their forebears, and in need of salvation. Religion is marketed the same way beauty products are. "You're ugly and you stink, but don't worry, our product can fix you!"

Only the men are stinky though.

The women are delicate blossoms who use the burqa as a shield against the deviants.

Aodhan McDunnough · 06-20-2009, 01:57 PM

At any rate, I'd rather not make it illegal on the simple ground that there are those who WANT to wear it.

Isabeau Imako · 06-20-2009, 01:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Joshua Nightshade

The word burqa, specifically, no.

The concept hijab, explicitly:

"And say to the believing women that they cast down their looks and guard their private parts and do not display their ornaments except what appears thereof, and let them wear their head-coverings over their bosoms, and not display their ornaments except to their husbands or their fathers, or the fathers of their husbands, or their sons, or the sons of their husbands, or their brothers, or their brothers' sons, or their sisters' sons, or their women, or those whom their right hands possess, or the male servants not having need (of women), or the children who have not attained knowledge of what is hidden of women; and let them not strike their feet so that what they hide of their ornaments may be known; and turn to Allah all of you, O believers! so that you may be successful."

"O Prophet! Enjoin your wives, your daughters, and the wives of true believers that they should cast their outer garments over their persons (when abroad) That is most convenient, that they may be distinguished and not be harassed."

What I'm reading is ''Don't walk around naked''.
Ornaments = Breasts? Vagina?

Aimee Weber · 06-20-2009, 01:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lo Jacobs

So are a lot of other women.

Yes. Ceiri's point was that the justification for the burka (to curb men's arousal and perhaps prevent rape) is invalid as Muslim women are raped as often as women in any other culture.

Joshua Nightshade · 06-20-2009, 01:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Isabeau Imako

What I'm reading is ''Don't walk around naked''.
Ornaments = Breasts? Vagina?

From the wiki:

Hijab - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Quote:

All four Sunni schools of thought (Hanafi, Shafi'i, Maliki and Hanbali) hold that entire body of the woman, except her face and hands, is part of her awrah, that is the parts of her body that must be covered during prayer and in public settings.

Some Sunni Muslims recommend that women wear loose clothing that is not form fitting to the body either modest forms of western clothing (long shirts and skirts), or the more traditional jilbāb, a high-necked, loose robe that covers the arms and legs. A khimār or shaylah, a scarf or cowl that covers all but the face, is also worn in many different styles. Some Salafi scholars encourage covering the face. Many of them say it is mandatory to cover the face. Other scholars oppose face covering, particularly in the west where the woman may draw more attention as a result. These garments are very different in cut than most of the traditional forms of ħijāb, and they are worn worldwide by Muslims.

Detailed scholarly attention has been focused on prescribing female dress. Most scholars agree that the basic requirements are that when in the presence of someone of the opposite sex (other than a close family member - see mahram), a woman should cover her body, and walk and dress in a way which does not draw sexual attention to her. Some scholars go so far as to specify exactly which areas of the body must be covered. In some cases, this is everything save the eyes but most require everything save the face and hands to be covered. In nearly all Muslim cultures, young girls are not required to wear a ħijāb. There is not a single agreed age when a woman should begin wearing a ħijāb; however, in many Muslim countries, puberty is the dividing line.

In private, and in the presence of mahrams, the rules on dress are relaxed. However, in the presence of husband, most scholars stress the importance of mutual freedom and pleasure of the husband and wife.

06-20-2009, 01:38 PM	#26 (permalink)
Lucifer Baphomet Pampers Io Zenophile Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Darkmere Posts: 12,227 My Mood: Business: Radio Free Darkmere Awards: 1	Ever noticed lots of women in Burqas make the most of their eyes? __________________

06-20-2009, 01:50 PM	#37 (permalink)
Richie Waves Joie de vivre! Is Three apples Tall Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Between Iraq and Israel Posts: 8,949 SL Join Date: 27/06/2005	It should be pointed out that the Quran does not once mention the Burqa.. infact it only stresses that both men and women should dress modestly in public.. it also says that there should be no compulsion in Religion __________________ My lastfm Oooh, Betty! the cat did a shit in the hat

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06-20-2009, 01:41 PM	#30 (permalink)
Lucifer Baphomet Pampers Io Zenophile Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Darkmere Posts: 12,227 My Mood: Business: Radio Free Darkmere Awards: 1	Not only is a burqa ban anti muslim... IT'S ANTI AMERICAN

06-20-2009, 01:47 PM	#35 (permalink)
Joshua Nightshade Account Closed Unedited Join Date: Jun 2007 Posts: 33,567 My Mood:	You guys are missing Aodhan's point. The burqa is because women are beautiful and pure while men are lecherous perverts who can't be trusted. It's not a matter of deliberately arousing someone or not, it's actually rather insulting to men in the sense of "this is why you can't have nice things." The Koran is pretty harsh on guys and the burqa is meant to protect women from guys who would turn into warebeasts if they saw them. It's a bit twisted and obviously the sense has been warped tremendously from its original incarnation. Islam wasn't such a patriarchal religion as it is today, what you see now is a perversion for political control much the same way as what's happened in the United States with neo-Christianity.

06-20-2009, 01:53 PM	#40 (permalink)
Isabeau Imako P'tite Poulette Spreading the lip balm Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: Montréal Posts: 2,046 My Mood:	I just don't see how banning it will make woman reconsider wearing a burqa. They have to come to that realization on their own. By forcing them to comply to our sense of what is 'right', you risk alienating the ones who you are trying to help.

06-20-2009, 01:57 PM	#47 (permalink)
Aodhan McDunnough exp(ln(Gearhead)) Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Philippines Posts: 5,825 My Mood: Beer Tapper Gone Wild Champion! Apprentice : Dairy Queen Champion! SLShopper Ads: 2 SL Join Date: March 28, 2006 Business: Aodhan's Forge Blog Entries: 2	At any rate, I'd rather not make it illegal on the simple ground that there are those who WANT to wear it.

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