CaleVinson

But isn't the burqa, at most, a symbol of ultraorthodoxy, rather than ultraorthodoxy itself? Isn't what we despise in ultraorthodoxy the violence against women, lack of political and economic power, access to education, etc, and isn't that where the line in the sand starts rather than with the burqa itself?

Are you suggesting that if (a presumably very small number of) women voluntarily wear the Burqa in France, that this alone will result in France becoming a second Saudi Arabia?

And this, I think, is the sort of line we should be guarding. Western democracies set curricula for schools, and require that all students receive an education against that curricula. IMHO, this is a critical component of an open society, and I'm not advocating for a nano-second that we relax this to accommodate any form of religion.

I don't understand why this keeps coming up. I haven't seen anyone in this thread argue in support of the horrific things you describe above. For myself, way back on p.6 I wrote:

Its already against the law in western democracies to do all the things you note, and I'm sure we're in furious agreement that those laws (anti-discrimination, protection from violence, right to free-speech, etc) must be protected at all costs. What I don't see is how allowing women to wear the Burqa will result in our one day waking up and finding that those protective laws are gone. And if its not going to happen as abruptly as that, why can't we fight attacks on those laws when, and if, they arise?

Lucifer Baphomet

Cale, the Burqa may only be a symbol.

But, symbols have power.

Just look at the way some Americans wig out when the Stars and Bars is "desecrated".

__________________

CaleVinson

Sure, but flag-burning is not *illegal* (at least it isn't in Australia). Would you want it to be so, just so that people don't "wig out"?

Since when does it matter, in a free society, what people "wig out" about? To be honest, the Burqa wigs me out too, but I don't think that's sufficient reason to ban it.

Hypatia Callisto

How can you educate these girls in the usual university setting, when they can't even be in the same room with a male instructor? They are married off in arranged marriages by their families, and often don't go to university. Often they don't even finish their basic schooling. I'd love to believe in all these things for them, but if they adopted the burqa willingly, they are highly unlikely to take advantage of it in the first place because they don't believe in it.

No, but it's a wedge strategy to push Sharia law to cover them in a separate legal system and this is something many French people object to, it is contrary to a central notion in France: the idea that French law applies to all citizens equally. I object to it too, women who find themselves in these marriages often decide against staying in them and find themselves at risk of honor killings. I'm not going to agree to legalise honor killings either.

Really, if they think this is a better way of life, I invite them to use the airport and emigrate to a country which will give them what they want. Sitting in the West as a beneficiary of an open society while thumbing their nose at it seems pretty hypocritical to me.

As many of them are either converts or were born in Europe, and not actually immigrants, they probably have no clue what those societies are like that so many of those immigrants risked life and limb to escape. They should go there and experience it firsthand what its like to not have freedom. Maybe that's harsh, but it's my feeling on this.

Oddly enough, secularism protects freedom of religion, and protects it very well - for those who believe in the freedom to practice the religion of their conscience. Unfortunately, my experience is that the ultraorthodox in Islam do not accept this, and I have little sympathy for those who don't accept the basic tenets of religious toleration.

Really, lets compare Saudi Arabia to France, where both countries have citizens who expect a certain kind of dress.

In Saudi Arabia, you cannot drive a car if you are a woman, and you cannot enter the country as a tourist if you are not a Muslim. In Saudi Arabia, all women have to wear Islamic dress, even Western women. There is no tolerance at all.

In France, you can not only drive a car, you can drive it over the border to Germany without even so much as a border guard. You can enter the country freely as a tourist, and France does recognise the right of Muslims to practice their religion and wear the hijab.

It's because its a wedge strategy. I tend to draw the line at wedge strategies of extreme religions to push their religious agendas. It's the same reason I disagree with the teaching of creationism in public schools, too.

It may not end up in the rights of ethnic French women being gone overnight, but it does mean the rights of Muslim women overall getting eroded in favor of more radical sects which claims dominance over all Muslims, and that's wrong. There's been a push to have Sharia law recognised for Muslims in Europe. There should never be two sets of laws for people in a country. It's still discrimination, because its accepting the religious authorities dominion over women who happen to be born into Muslim families.

As a side note, I don't find Western fashion "objectifying" to women. Nobody forces Western women to wear it, they choose it on their own free will because it makes them happy, and fashion that emphasizes a woman's curves isn't "objectifying" to me full stop.

I don't accept most of the "gender studies" anti-male "patriarchy" philosophy (I refuse to call it science or history, because it isn't accurate in either) and that goes for "feminist theory" of the radical variety too. I haven't forgiven that bunch of traitors since they collaborated with Edwin Meese's anti-porn brigade under Reagan. They are anti-science and anti-sex and anti-freedom of speech, and they can twist in the wind for all I care

I'm all for equal rights, and that includes my right to make erotica or wear bikinis, corsets, or fetish heels. No, I'm not objectified and abused by the "patriarchy", because I bloody chose to be a kinky pervert, men are not out to rape me because most of them like to have sex with women or look at porn. I believe repression of sexuality makes rape more likely, not openness and free expression of sexuality. But that's just my opinion

__________________
"To begin with," said the Cat, "a dog's not mad. You grant that?"

"I suppose so," said Alice.

"Well, then," the Cat went on, "you see, a dog growls when it's angry, and wags its tail when it's pleased. Now I growl when I'm pleased, and wag my tail when I'm angry. Therefore I'm mad."

"I call it purring, not growling," said Alice.

"Call it what you like," said the Cat.

CaleVinson

I'm sure its not from lack of intent on either side, but I don't feel we're communicating effectively on this topic, so I'll keep this brief.

Refusing to make the Burqa illegal does not tie one into to allowing the introduction of Sharia Law. A common legal system, and the rule of law, etc, are, I would argue, fundamental to our western democracies, and that's the line we should defend. I won't argue that wedge attacks aren't a possibility, but I think they're also readily defeatable, eg., "We did not ban the Burqa, because its no business of ours what you wear, but granting Sharia Law is a different proposition because it undermines the current system of law in this country."

I also note that if the only requirement that a thing be banned is that it might be used in a wedge attack, then a heck of a lot of other things would be subject to the ban-hammer too.

Hypatia Callisto

I already stated that it could be rendered in a way that is not singling out Islam - that it can be stated in a way that stops people from hiding their identity in public.

That would include walking into a university, bank or crowded shopping mall wearing a skimask, or a burqa. I'm equal opportunity that way

io Kukulcan

here's some gasoline for the fire:

Richie Waves

It's patently singling out Islam though.

Plus laws against items of clothing in public seems ridiculous to me.. yea, no helmet in a bank or shop is common sense though.

__________________
My lastfm

Oooh, Betty! the cat did a shit in the hat

Richie Waves

Ah the happiest day of her life...

CaleVinson

I wasn't thinking so much of the "singling out" issue.

More that the wedge-issue argument seems to me to be logically equivalent to the following.

"Here's Action A. We can't demonstrate that Action A harms anyone apart from (at most) the people choosing to participate in it, but we think it might lead to Action B which is universally acknowledged to harm people generally. Accordingly, we're banning Action A."

I reckon I could do a hell of a lot of evil with that principle.

Envoy Costagravas

So much logic being applied to such an emotional and illogical issue. This will not only not end well, but the middle is going to be a complete train wreck. The beginning is already veritable chaos. I'm going to consult my Magic 8 Ball on this one...

__________________
"When Men differ in Opinion, both Sides ought equally to have the Advantage of being heard by the Publick;
and that when Truth and Error have fair Play, the former is always an overmatch for the latter."
~ Benjamin Franklin

CaleVinson

I know you're licensed-to-kill Envoy, but are you fully qualified in Coconutting as well? Its a very subtle skill, and one false move can end in disaster .......

Envoy Costagravas

He reads. He ponders. He shoots. He scores!

Bard Jameson

This thread has sharp edges and contains corrosive materials. All participants are advised to wear OSHA-approved gloves, goggles and rubberized smocks.

And yes, you have to pay for them yourselves.

__________________

Photogenix Flickr Stream: http://www.flickr.com/photos/34885797@N08/

Photogenix Blog - http://photogenixstudios.blogspot.com/

Aimee Weber

She deserved it. Just ask her and I think she would agree.

__________________
"I asked the Ouija Board about the ideomotor effect, but it just told me to f*ck off."

Surreal

You will see that in Mexico though. Last drive through, I was stopped at least a dozen time by army checkpoints.

__________________

Oryx Tempel

Heh I just saw this thread. I'm just poking my head in to say that I only sell a burqa, along with abayas and hijab in my shop because women have requested them. In Second Life. Where women can dress however they like.

I lived in Kuwait for a year, and have spent quality time in Bahrain, and Iraq. Seemed like each country had its own dress code. Kuwait was the most liberal; I actually saw a woman wearing pants there, though she was wearing the hijab. Bahrain is a popular vacation spot for Saudis, so I saw a lot of the full-on black bit. After a while, you just sort of get used to it, and I felt VERY conspicuous and under-dressed even in my long dress and headscarf.

Here are some cool fashion show pics that y'all might like. I believe they're from a show in Jordan, but don't quote me on that.

__________________
Sister Oryx of the Tempel of Pestilence, Destroyer of Faith, Counter of Calories, Murderer of Virtue, whose Sadistic Laugh Rings from the Walls As Her Victims' Screams of Anguish Fade to Bloody, Choking Gurgles and Then Silence.

Surreal

Is this recent? I was last there in ~1991 and this wasn't the case for tourists.

Arwen Hykova

I wouldnt complain if france made them all wear this style

__________________
I am giving you a 7.1 on the Troutenheimer Scale of Sluttitude. Your inner slut is hiding inside, waiting to emerge. Congratulations and shame on you!

Oryx Tempel

No. It's not true, except for the driving bit. That was as of 2005.

[Explain: Women cannot drive. Tourists need not be Muslim. A passport valid for at least six months and a visa are required for entry. Visas are issued for business and work, to visit close relatives, and for transit and religious visits by Muslims. Visas for tourism are issued only for approved tour groups following organized itineraries. The Saudi Embassy in Washington advises women traveling to Saudi Arabia to dress in a conservative fashion in public, wearing ankle-length dresses with long sleeves and not pants. In many areas of Saudi Arabia, particularly Riyadh and the central part of the Kingdom, Mutawwa pressure women to wear a full-length black covering known as an Abaya, and to cover their heads. Most women in these areas therefore wear an Abaya and carry a headscarf to avoid being accosted. Women who appear to be of Arab or Asian origin, especially those presumed to be Muslims, face a greater risk of being confronted. From http://travel.state.gov/travel/cis_p...cis_1012.html]

Dancien Graves

__________________

Bard Jameson

Am I a bad person for thinking this is hawt?

('cept I think I would do in in shades of Royal Blue, and dump what looks like the floral print underskirt for an understated pattern of blue and black )

Eirik

I like how it's been banned in many places over here for years (both the burqa and the niqab), and noone ever bothered to get upset.

I guess since it falls under the power of community/city council here, it doesn't get as much news coverage as if a federal government decides it.

They fall under the same legislation that says you can't go around the city masked/unidentifiable without permission of the mayor (permission given for happenings such as carnival only usually).

__________________

Fade Languish

Beautiful clothes.

Hana

Actually, see for those reasons i think banning (or making them illegal) makes sense. like how banks (at least in the USA) have signs on the doors that you can't enter with your face covered (even in the winter with like a snow-mask thing on). Because of course that presents a potential safety issue to the public..

So i could totally understand the law saying they can't be worn because it makes people unidentifiable.. visually.

but making them illegal or banning them because they are "demeaning to women" i can't get behind. i mean.. i can't get behind any law (in any country) that suggest people can't wear X Y or Z because it's "demeaning".

~

i wonder if that's why it didn't cause a stink though.. in other areas, if like you said they've been made illegal to wear other places. Maybe people could understand them being outlawed for public safety reasons.. ~ i wonder if it's "why" France is reportedly making them illegal that is the source of all the upset/controversy and stuff..?

__________________