Io Zeno

I'm too tired to answer this, other than saying, I've known women who, simply traveling alone, in these countries, were considered whores and harassed to the point of rape.

If you did not experience this, god bless.

I also notice it's only men agreeing with you.

Yes, I'm being a bitch but it is true. We do know that this is bullshit, frankly, when we don't' trust our own men not to rape/kill us for fucks sake.

Surreal

I'll be honest, I'm really twitchy about deciding I know what is best for other people. Clothing has long been a way to identify yourself as part of a tribe.... be it Berber, Islam, Goth or Wall St.

I've had jobs where I had to wear pantyhose - it was in the dress code. And I've never understood how guy's survived the full suit & tie in the Texas summers.

I think the face veil is a problem in a Western country where it contravenes our laws... like in photo IDs. But I'm not going to tell a woman she can't wear one anymore than I'd tell a woman she must wear one.

The freedom to choose in so much as our choices don't endanger others - isn't that the cornerstone of what we're about?

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Surreal

I don't know what's going on in your life right now, but it's obviously bleeding over into your posting. I hope whatever it is gets worked out and that you feel better after a good night's sleep.

Ramonna Villota

I m with Io on this, however I have no problem with painting with a broad brush on this. Some people and cultures are completely savage to mine.

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Io Zeno

I do love you, Surreal.

But when I'm like this, I'm just brutally honest, not full of angst.

You are free to disagree, but I'm not deranged or upset.

I do need to sleep, however.

Lo Jacobs

I sort of get where Io is coming from, in the way where there was that study that said that the thing men are most afraid of is that women will laugh at them, and the thing women are most afraid of is that men will kill them. The discrepancy is striking.

Anyway, I think she is being a tad abstract.

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Psyke Phaeton

When you are Queen, Io, and putting men on your sword, will the sexual oppression be over??

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Bard Jameson

It will have only begun...but for a good cause

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Ramonna Villota

Depends on what kind of sword she wields.

Surreal

I'm also very twitching about telling other women what they have to do to be free. It smack of paternalism.

I'm going to speak from a US perspective since that's where I live, even though I've traveled and lived in France.

If a woman wanted to abandon the veil here, she could.

We would not let her be stoned in the street. There are places she could go for sanctuary if her husband-family assaulted her, some set up by other Islamic women as well as the usual shelters. We might not be able to prevent an honor killing, but we would at least put the murderer in jail. And we would try, given an opportunity.

There are also moderate Islamic communities that a woman could move to and stay with her religion.

I don't know that we should do anything other than ensure the law of the land is followed and provide opportunities for any woman willing to take them.

Io Zeno

rape statistics

Who are the Victims? | RAINN | Rape, Abuse & Incest National Network


What is my answer?

REBELLION.

Bard Jameson

I'm way out on a limb here, but I remember this was part of Germaine Greer's argument - that western attitudes about gender equality, sexuality, etc. were being put forward as the a priori standard for the entire world. No regard was given for local differences.

We see it even here. There is the automatic statement that "X" is "abusive/dehumanizing/whathaveyou". For all her faults, at least Greer talked to women in other cultures and reported her findings.

I tend to think that my values are permanent and all-encompassing too, Then I remember that my experience is severely limited, my travels close to home, and my time on this planet still measured in years rather than centuries, and I demurr some out of simple modesty and respect.

Psyke Phaeton

So the burqua did this?

ETA: Guns don't kill people, people kill people.

Bard Jameson

No, no...we've moved on to a much richer vein to mine...evol men

Io Zeno

You know, reading about this, in fiction and in myth.... I do have a "warrior's soul".

It's probably why I wanted to join the army in my youth but my ideals prevented me (I did not want want to fight an unjust war under Reagan)

But it does come out, eventually, like in this issue.

As an American, I value freedom, above all.

As a human being, I view us as weak and frail and given to whatever FAIL we are allowed.

If anyone wants to argue that our American Freedom is Superior I welcome them to it.

I would like to believe it is is true. I know it is not.

CaleVinson

Interesting thought experiment:

I don't think that wearing a Burqa should make any difference in working in a Research Lab. I say that partly because of the nature of interaction between scientists, but also because most scientists already work on a day to day basis with colleagues in a different city, state, or country, and for which the primary communication is email and phone.

And that could be extended to other occupations as well. How would you tell that the customer support person you just rang is wearing a burqa? The postal contractor who delivers your mail?

You might counter-argue that the co-workers know of course, but I don't think the tyranny of the majority should apply here. And people can be quite flexible about work arrangements, if you give them the opportunity. I know of two MtF transsexuals who transitioned on the job (both in research), and their colleagues seemed to have taken it in their stride.

I'm not saying that Burqa-wearers would not be subject to discrimination, but my response to that would be to work against discrimination. I'm also not saying that Burqa-wearers would be suitable for all jobs, clearly they wouldn't be. But its not obvious to me that they are unemployable.

Psyke Phaeton

White Male Oppression Awareness Month!

Bard Jameson

Which is exactly "their" excuse for attacking "yours".

So, the moral difference...is...???

Surreal

So let me tackle this then...

You're talking about the human condition here, not something unique to a particular country. I can get harassed and raped right here at home. Women do have to be more vigilant than men to avoid being sexually assaulted, but plenty of men end up mugged and dead too - and often they never see it coming.

And again, how much is attitude and behavior? Before I visit a country, I research it's culture, mores, manners, particular dangers, and try to learn a few helpful words like please. I dress to blend in and not look afluent. I never forget that I'm a guest in their country. I don't expect them to change to accommodate me. I go out of my way to avoid trouble and in the 30+ years I've been knocking about, it's worked. Well I was robbed in Naples once, but everyone gets robbed in Italy... it's a cesspit.

I'm an old skool feminist. I came up in the 70s when some of the rights I listed were things I couldn't do. So kindly don't try to play the "pander to the boys" card. It doesn't fly with me. I was marching and munching rug when you were in grade school.

Is Cale a guy? If so, well damn... there go my fantasies of her in a sexy teacher outfit with a math book and ruler.

Actually, I do trust the men I know to neither rape nor kill me. I hope you're not talking about personal experience or that of someone close to you.

Hey... rape has been with us from the cave. If you find an answer, let me know. But don't paint the entire gender with the rapist or murderer brush. It's bullshit and offensive. It's like saying all women are manipulative bitches just because some are.

Surreal

Well my answer is guns.

Io Zeno

Oh, please, Surreal, you know your history enough to know that the random bitch is no answer to the enslavement of an entire sex.

I will state, without apology, that the West is enlightened on this issue and the rest of the world is either playing catch-up or in denial.

Psyke Phaeton

I walked into a Subway once and the two ladies working there had on full burquas. I was taken aback, it was alien to me. But I ignored the surprise and made my order (in a somewhat surreal state) but everything proceeded as normal. The conversations were normal and natural. It was only my reactions that were a problem, there seemed to be no objective problem.

Emotions are not evidence of reality. They can lie to us. We should focus on logic.

Surreal

Discrimination aside, I think the only areas of concern would be safety hazards... billowy fabric around open flame, moving parts, etc.... or identification for secure buildings, which while that can be overcome with palm readers, etc. most people still rely on the clip-on ID with a picture.

Driving would require the face veil with the wider horizontal opening also.

Surreal

You need to get out more. There are gradations of oppression-empowerment. If you want to experience real freedom as a woman, I suggest Sweden.

But don't let me get between you and your h8 on evol men.

Surreal

I confess, I've been curious as to what it would feel like and what reactions would be. I've considered acquiring the outer coat, head scarf and face veil and walking around Philly.

If I decide to do it, I'll report back on my experiences.