Vengence Opus

List of FDA approved drugs that are more deadly than marijuana:

Reglan
Haldol
Lithium
Neurontin
Wellbutrin
Viagra
Vioxx

(All numbers reported from1/1/97 - 06/30/05)

Total marijuana deaths reported - 279 (secondary suspect)

Total deaths from 17 FDA-approved drugs - 10,008 (primary suspect)
1,679 (secondary suspect)

Deaths from Marijuana v. 17 FDA-Approved Drugs - Medical Marijuana - ProCon.org



So much for all of the "it's dangerous" ass-talking in this thread.



Can't wait to read back on this while puffing on a store-bought blunt.

__________________


“If you're losing your soul and you know it, then you've still got a soul left to lose.” ~ Charles Bukowski

Ayumi

There are a lot of things more deadly than marijuana. Say, automobiles, handguns, the flu, etc. But just because it doesnt currently kill a lot of people, still doesnt make it a good reason to legalize it as a recreational drug.

I'm sure lead paint doesnt actually kill a lot of people, but that doesnt mean that we should use it again.

Vengence Opus

FDA APPROVED DRUGS.

Your apples and oranges comparisons have pegged my bullshit detector. Have a fun time masturbating this thread.

Ayumi

To reuse your "apples and oranges comparisons" analogy, how does the legalization of one drug, justify the legalization of another?

We legalized aspirin, lets legalize cocaine, they're both white!

Vivianne Draper

No. You don't see a lot of minors with access to cigarettes and alcohol. I mean you do but not massively more than drugs and probably less. This is because illegal drugs are marketed to minors because, well, they are illegal. And you have a school which is a fantastic gathering place. And the price is reduced to make it affordable at the minor level, rather than regulated, taxed, and sold by stores that will loose their licenses if they sell to minors. Being illegal is not what keeps it out of the hands of minors -- OBVIOUSLY. Being illegal is not what keeps it out of the hands of anyone.

Cigarettes are legal, and surprisingly not everyone in the US or anywhere else smokes cigarettes and they are not used by a larger proportion of minors. Same thing with alcohol. Imagine that -- it isn't illegal and we aren't all a bunch of cigarette smoking alchy's. And our prisons aren't full of people who lit up a cig or had a drink.

On top of that you can't have it both ways. You can't say that a large proportion of minors are those who advocate legalization but then when figures are presented you shrug them off because of course minors have less money and less access. Minors, in fact, have more access. And I had plenty of money when I was a minor and I did not grow up rich. However many minors receive generous allowances.

I think arguing with you though, is pointless. You've made up your mind based on your admitted lack of knowledge. You are unwilling to do any research whatsoever and when asked for research to back up your opinions you admit that your opinions are off the top of your head and based on nothing. I think you've been so indoctronated by the anti-drug propoganda that nothing anyone says here will make any difference whatsoever. I have nothing to base that on but cannot figure out any other reason why someone would have as strong an opinion as you do with so little knowledge of any facts at all. You admit that imprisoning so much of our population but refuse to consider any idea or even offer any idea but are more than willing to sit there and refute any that have even the slightest hint of legalization. This, right there, is illogical in the extreme.

I've refuted every argument you've made including one the one wherein you argued you didn't want minors and potheads making up our laws and votiing for our government. I think I'd rather have an educated pothead or minor than an uneducated straight person.

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Arilynn

On a purely economic basis, the current marijuana laws should be reconsidered. In 2005, over 530 distinguished economists endorsed a report by Jeffrey Miron, then a visiting professor of economics at Harvard. The report called for an open debate on ending the criminalization of marijuana and instead taxing and regulating it in a manner similar to alcohol. This would produce an estimated $10-14 billion in revenue a year. It would also save an estimated $7.7 billion a year on enforcing current MJ laws - $2.4 billion federally and $5.3 bilion at the state and local levels.

And all this money is spent on a relatively benign intoxicant. Long-term heavy use has been associated with a range of problems ranging from lung damage to psychiatric problems. But sporadic use has been shown by multiple studies to have less negative effects than alcohol or tobacco, and the associated health care costs for MJ use are dwarfed by that from alcohol and, especially, tobacco. It is thought to be several times less addicting than nicotine.

Like a lot of the rhetoric supporting criminalization, the "gatekeeper drug" argument doesn't hold up. The RAND Corp has studied this alleged effect in different population groups and found that it doesn't exist. Also, it is estimated that 75% of people who use illicit drugs only use MJ - their marijuana use didn't spiral them into an array of other drugs.

But this is a topic that continues to be mired in politics. In 1972 the bipartisan Shafer Commission appointed by Nixon to study the effects of marijuana recommended decriminalizing personal MJ use. This conclusion was rejected.

In the meantime, the amount of money spent to enforce marijuana laws continues to flow and people still face lengthy prison time for personal possession in many locations, especially for repeat offenses. In 2006 the FBI estimated that there is one marijuana-based arrest in the US every 38 seconds, with nearly 90% of that being for possession. The US has the biggest prisoner population in the world - 7.3 million incarcerated or on probation or parole - and more people are in prison for MJ-based offenses than for violent offenses. It is a staggering cost we pay in terms of money, human potential, and rational legislation. As a society and a nation, I don't think we should or can continue like this.

I dislike the smell of pot. It give me an instant, pounding headache. And in social situations I don't need anything else to mess up my understanding of what is happening around me. So I choose not to use it. But I think the US drug laws need to be completely rethought.

Vengence Opus

Are you really fucking serious?



I weep for the future.

Psyke Phaeton

http://www.drugs.health.gov.au/inter..._marijuana.pdf

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Ayumi

in countries like China, and Korea.. smoking cigarettes has taken over the culture, and the percentage of smokers has jumped to astronomical rates.

""Two-thirds of all the young men in China, but, as yet, few of the young women, become smokers. Half the smokers who persist will eventually be killed by their habit," said Oxford University epidemiologist Sir Richard Peto, who led the study. "
- China and Smoking

Just because it didnt happen in America, doesnt mean that it cant or wont happen at some point. It doesnt mean that it does, but it also doesnt mean that anyone should throw out the possibility.


"Nearly half (48 percent) of all the alcohol consumed by students attending 4-year colleges is consumed by underage students"
- Characteristics of Underage Drinking

I know that isnt the best example, because its college.. but a LOT of kids do drink underage. the percentages are MUCH higher than they were in the 12-17 age bracket for minors who did drugs.

Oh wait, here we go.

"• More than half (53.9) of all people aged 12 to 20 engaged in underage drinking in their lifetime, ranging from 11.0 percent of 12 year olds to 85.5 percent of 20 year olds."

New Nationwide Report Estimates that 40 Percent of Underage Drinkers Received Free Alcohol from Adults Over 21

So even 12 year olds, the very lowest on the minor scale we have presented in both of our quoted resources.. are higher than the average drug use for minors. up to 85.5% of 20 year olds.

How have I been indoctrined by anti-drug propaganda. I havent once quoted "marijuana is a gateway drug", I've never said "marijuana kills people". I've even said that direct death as a result of marijuana use is ridiculously difficult.

Vivianne Draper

and yet, all those underage drinkers didn't grow up to be alcoholics. Amazing. You'd think, given the availabilty of alcohol that they would. How is it that they've been able to escape that evil scourge!??? Could it be that a recreational substance when advertised as just that and the social stigma against being a drunk works?

You forgot the figures that show cigarette smoking declining in the US -- especially among minors.

Maryland Attorney General - News Release

wow imagine if we could do that with marijuana! oh we can't. Because its illegal.

why am i still arguing with you? bye

Merovigan

You're against it, without really knowing why.

That would be indoctrination.

__________________
“I prefer to be true to myself, even at the hazard of incurring the ridicule of others, rather than to be false, and to incur my own abhorrence.”

Frederick Douglas

Vivianne Draper

how come i can't put this thread on ignore? the option is not available under thread tools

Ayumi

There is so much anti-smoking lobbying going on right now. A lot of groups are pouring tons and tons of money into it. But yes, you're correct. The legalization of marijuana would also aid in the control of it. But is the availability increase, shadowed by how much could be prevented by heavy lobbying and restrictions?

And alcoholism is a disease, the use of alcohol isnt necessarily related to the development of the malady.

"While the ingestion of alcohol is, by definition, necessary to develop alcoholism, the use of alcohol does not predict the development of alcoholism. It is estimated that 9% of the general population is predisposed to alcoholism based on genetic factors." -http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alcoholism

Merovigan

I think it would be better to start talking about Doritos. All marijuana threads should end in Doritos.

Ayumi

Oh, I know why. I've been stating my reasons this entire thread. I just have no real reason to BE against it personally.

None of the points I've been arguing, are really ones that they bring up in anti-drug propaganda. I hardly see how your point is in any way valid.

Merovigan

Another problem with your indoctrination is that simple facts, conversation, and debate will not change your mind. You didn't think your way into your position, it was impressed upon you.

I don't blame you; our schools are great at teaching kids that weed is the devil.

Now if only they taught critical thinking with such gusto...

Arilynn

The legalization of one drug doesn't justify the legalization of another. For each drug there should be a weighing of the costs involved with prohibition with the potential harm prevented by such laws. In short, the laws should be based on rational analysis, informed by medical data. The balance with marijuana is skewed, and as I mentioned in my previous post (complete with the statistical information you seemed to want), it is costing the US dearly.

Lyndi Lupindo

The entire 'Drug War' is complete nonsense. Our government spends billions of our tax dollars every year with no success, as recent polls have indicated drug use has only risen.

Marijuana has been used since Biblical times and you'll find zero proof of anyone being harmed from it. I read -one- article once, that was soon debunked by Snoops, saying a man smoked at least a hundred joints of marijuana for days on end and eventually OD'd and died from it. The truth: he died of smoke inhalation and would have died no matter what he smoked.

How many people die each year from alcohol poisoning? Over 1,300. How many people are killed or injured by drunk drivers each year? Over 180,000. How many people join Alcoholics Anonymous each year? Over one million new members each year (not including any other 12-step or alcohol recovery programs). Now...How many abused wives tell stories of their husband coming home high and smacking them around with a bong? None. How many deaths were caused by marijuana in the last uh..let's say, hundred years? None. How many Potheads Anonymous programs have you heard of? None.

I dunno about you, but if the choice were mine, I'd rather drive with somebody that was high on marijuana over somebody that had a single drink... any day of the week. I'd rather -be around- somebody that was high, too. Drunk people are loud and clumsy, sometimes violent, they think they are funnier than they are... some girls turn into sluts... you say/do things you shouldn't, and on top of all that, you're poisoning your body. People who smoke are calm, relaxed, giggly, perhaps a little spacey... they are certainly not loud and violent. I've also yet to see anyone turn slutty after getting high. Nor do I hear about stoned drivers causing fatal car accidents.

If alcohol is legal, marijuana should be, too. It's less harmful and non-addictive. Whatever standards alcohol met for being legal, I'm quite sure marijuana can meet them, as well. It sounds like somebody has forgotten the violence and destruction caused by Prohibition... you know, when alcohol -was- illegal? The economy suffered immensely, but not as much as the innocent people that lost their lives in the crossfire of mob-wars over who could sell their moonshine where. By the time the government re-legalized alcohol, there were more alcoholics than there were before Prohibition. Interesting little fact I'm sure you were blissfully unaware of...

And so here we are, with all these drugs illegal and off-limits. And what good does it do? People die or are infected every day from reusing needles. Needle exchange programs are becoming more common, but it's not enough. A lot of users are scared to go get a new needle because they fear prosecution. They are forced into alleyways to shoot up, hiding from the police. They are getting their drugs from the street - not knowing where it comes from or what's in it... There was laced heroin on the streets a few years ago and it killed dozens of people. Legalize it and distribute it from a safe, clean place. Give them clean needles and clean drugs. Offer them counseling and free rehab. You may not realize it, but most of the junkies living on the street don't -want- to be there. Yes, they got themselves there, but once you've fallen and hit rock bottom.. with no help.. you stay there. Give them clean drugs that you can sell and tax (operating costs for the clinics + some for the govt.) and your violent drug dealers and gangs will be put out of business. The number of fatal overdoses will drop. The transmitting of AIDS through dirty needles will rapidly decline. And people that need help will actually get it.

The same goes for marijuana. Legalize it, sell it, and tax it. The only reason the goverment refuses to do so, is because they are afraid that they cannot regulate it. They can't control who grows it. It literally grows -naturally- on every continent except Antarctica. In your back yard, the side of the interstate, greenhouses, basements... they are scared shitless that everyone will begin growing it and nobody will need to buy it. BUT! If you legalize it and sell it (at a reasonable price), people would -much- rather purchase it legally and pay the government a tax than illegally grow it themselves. Since it's illegal, though, people are forced to grow it. They are forced to deal with dangerous drug dealers and because they have to deal with these drug dealers, they are exposed to other, more dangerous, drugs. I neeever would have tried extacy if the guy I bought pot from didn't have it. If it were legal, and I was able to purchase it at a store like a package store (they sell hard alcohols & wines, as opposed to beer), I wouldn't have... 'expanded my illegal substance horizons'... By keeping marijuana illegal, you push people into dangerous situations and expose them to things they'd never have an interest in otherwise.

I smoke pot on a daily basis. It's the only thing that makes me hungry enough to eat. And it helps my nausea enough to allow me to keep food down. If I didn't smoke pot, I'd be a miserable and emaciated bitch. Aside from keeping me healthy, it helps me open up and I don't get so anxious around large groups of people or strangers. When I'm painting, it relaxes me, which in turn keeps my hand steadier. It also helps the creativity aspect, but I figure that one went without saying... People that smoke pot aren't always abusing it. Some of us use it for very legitamite reasons and your assumption that it's abuse just because people use it for recreational purposes is very close minded and immature.

I don't understand how feeling euphoric can be considered bad or wrong. It's my body - why does anything I do to it matter to you or the government? Not all pot smokers sit on the couch call day, blow off college, and never make anything of themselves. Not only have I not met any pot smoker that even vaguely resembles that stereotype... every pot smoker I know has a stable and well-paying job; their own car and home; graduated highschool and college; and is a tax paying, contributing member of society. The shitty people I've met have been heavy drinkers or racists. Hmm.. weird, huh?

Yes, legalizing marijuana would bank the government millions of dollars each year. Forget the fact that people smoke it to feel good - oh noes! Forget about all the violence and drug cartels... for this argument, pretend there are NO drugs, no alcohol, no abuse of any substance. Got it in your head? Marijuana would save our planet. This miracle plant can power any diesle engine with a simple oil filter change. It can replace our need to cut down trees for paper products and can be recycled using over 3/4ths -less- energy than normal paper. Any petroleum byproduct can be made with hemp seed oil. We can make clothing - not just burlap-type fabrics, but some as soft as cashmere and silk... I have a hemp dress that looks like jersey knit, right out of American Apparel on 5th Street... it's fabulously decadent and is -the- softest fabric I've felt in my entire life (kinda reminds me of my childhood bankie, actually). Rope, paint, lamp oil, cooking oil, fuel, clothing, papers, varnish, wood, glues, plastics... Hemp is a completely renewable resource that can literally replace our dependency on oil and severely cut back on our need to destroy what little bit is left of our forests. You keep hearing 'go green!', well here is your answer right here in hemp. And now you know why DuPont and Anslinger wanted to make marijuana illegal - their beloved companies would no longer be able to hold a monopoly and would have serious competition. If your government officials used the tatics they used back then, they would be impeached and indicted. Yellow journalism and outright lies.. literally saying 'drug dealers sodomize your children with dope-sticks!' or 'smoking this will turn you into a vampire'... Would you actually believe it if you opened the paper to find an article claiming some kids smoked pot, immediately turned on each other and then cannibalized the weakest of the group? If so, you have no right to voice an opinion on this because you're stupid. These people lied in order to destroy the competition and you actually believe it?

If all that wasn't enough, think about how many people are in prison right now just because they had some pot. No intention of selling it to anyone else. Not a violent person. Maybe even a college graduate who was on the honor roll and never even said a bad word against another person his entire life. He's now sitting amongst rapists, murderers, violent and dangerous people for 10+ years, his life ruined, his lovely wife and kids gone.. because he wanted to get high and it's against the law because some asshole in the 30's wanted to make as much money as possible and would do anything he could to keep the money rolling in. And instead, other rapists and murderers are being let out of jail early because there's no room for them in the prisons. Non-violent people that do -not- belong in jail are being incarcerated instead of the people that truly need to be kept away from society. Are you scared of that pothead down the street or the guy that kidnaps women to torture? If it's the pothead, you're all kinds of twisted I'll never begin to understand.

I've found that those who have the most to say about how horrible marijuana is or it needing to be kept illegal, are usually a) people who have never smoked and are under the assumption it is a much different experience than it really is, b) close-minded individuals that fail to think for themselves and take a stance just because somebody else did/others do, and/or c) a child.

Stop making assumptions on a topic it's more than obvious you know nothing about. Most of your arguments can be debunked by looking at the wiki for Amsterdam. *tsk tsk*

fin.

Ayumi

...except that I'm agreeing with a lot of points people are making on the subject of the legalization of marijuana. There are plenty of valid ones.

Do you even read what I'm writing?

Merovigan

Yes, and I have the headache to prove it.

Vivianne Draper

FINE!

Spaceman Opus

Yer just too stoned to find it, ya pothead

__________________
Spacey's lil Blog

Ayumi

Ok, I've got to move on to other things. I might be back at some point, to argue again. But like I said. I dont really care! So, legalization or not, good debate sorta. Except Merovigan, whom I'm not really sure actually read anything I wrote in this entire thread.

Arilynn

You are moving on after I write a tl;dr treatise to give you the requested stats and info?

I'm just kidding. If PRS is adding to your bad mood, this is probably a good decision. Hope your mood lightens soon.

Joshua Nightshade

In China, and to a lesser extent Japan, the reason why smoking is so popular is because the tobacco companies outright lie about the effects of cigarettes and they (in China especially) pay outrageous amounts of money to the Chinese government to get unregulated access to do so.

It's like the 50s over there, with doctors prescribing cigarettes and advertisements stating that it makes you look younger and feel great.

I don't know what point you were trying to make mentioning them, but I don't think you made it.