Ayumi

And I just want to add, that this is EXACTLY the reason why weed shouldnt be legalized. If I can talk 4-5 of you to a standstill by myself, based on my very limited personal experience and knowledge of the drug.. with simple logic..

It doesnt speak very strongly about why it should be legalized. If there is truly no reason not to, than by all means. If the pros very heavily outweigh the cons, then of course. If logically it just makes an irrefutable amount of sense.. than absolutely.

But so far, I havent heard any ridiculously compelling reasons for myself personally to change positions on this.. and I'm very far from being biased on either side. I dont have any strong reason to be against it.. beyond deciding that it probably isnt a good idea based on the information I have available.

Vivianne Draper

you haven't talked anyone into a standstill. they are just tired of arguing with an illogical idiot. you haven't made one salient point. everything you have brought up has been an assumption on your part without any facts or figures to back it up.

By the way, in case you didn't know, Sio's last job was at a prison. And she is a registered nurse. I think she might be just a little qualified to talk about the effect of illegalization on the prison system and on a person's health.

__________________

Ayumi

14 states have already legalized medicinal marijuana, and I'm all for it. I think that people who are suffering, should be given any means necessary to put an end to their suffering.

But legalization of medicinal marijuana, and legalization of marijuana for recreational use are two very different subjects.

Never did I say that everyone 'for' the legalization was one of the three.. But it seems very convenient to turn a blind eye to the fact that it IS a reality when you weigh the pros and cons.

Would you want someone who fit into one of the three categories to decide who our next president will be, or the economic strategy our government is going to take over the next 4 years? Probably not. Why should any other potentially way-of-life changing decision be any different?

Joshua Nightshade

Ayumi are you okay? Your last couple days in the politics subforum have been really grouchy.

Ayumi

Not really, I've been in a really bad mood lately I think :/

Joshua Nightshade

Are the personal attacks necessary?

I don't agree with her at all, but you don't need to insult her.

Vivianne Draper

You've now heard from 2 middle aged white ladies who live in suburbia and hold advanced degree jobs. So I'd say the figures are against you on this board. On top of the fact that you are pulling this shit out of your ass. You have not quoted one source to back up your assumptions.

As far as someone who fit into one of those three categories... you mean like, as opposed to the people who voted for Bush, supported torture, and sat by and said nothing while the government they voted for started an illegal war and sent our economy into the crapper? Or perhaps you are thinking of those three categories as opposed to those who supported laws allowing wiretapping of any citizen without a warrant and the insanity that is airport security these days.

Yeah give me a pothead any day.

Yer losing all credibility fast kiddo.

Siobhan OFlynn

Since you apologized nicely I will answer this. Apology accepted.

I work in a correctional institution and I can tell you that it is entirely possible for someone to be arrested, charged with a felony and given a very harsh sentence for possessing a dime bag of marijuana.

New York has people serving some very draconian sentences because of the reactionary drug sentencing requirements passed in the late 60's, early 70's.

As a taxpayer, I object to housing people in prison at a cost of $35,000 a year simply for possessing an illegal substance. I know of one inmate who was serving a year and a day for having ONE tablet of Vicodin on her that she didn't have a prescription for. They weigh the pill and base the charge on the whole weight, which includes the majority ingredient of acetaminophen. Tne actual amount of hydrocodone in that pill is miniscule compared to it. I can't believe my state felt it was necessary to put her in prison at a cost of $35,000 for that year and a day. ETA: I want to clarify that it's $35,000 per inmate.

I have no issues with throwing the book at violent offenders, including violent drug addicts. The non violent ones are what I think is a waste of time, space and money. I'd rather see them spend that $35,000 on drug treatment programs and restoring funding to education and health care for all of the citizens of Florida.

Spaceman Opus

Smoke a joint, you'll feel better.



(sorry...someone had to)

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Spacey's lil Blog

Ayumi

lol, I dont mind the personal attacks. Honestly.

But if I'm being an illogical idiot, please prove it. Dont just say it. Find where my 2+2=5 is, and correct it with logical, rational statements. I've been arguing this all off the top of my head, like I said.. based on my limited knowledge and experience of the subject.

And yet, even though I havent brought any quoted statistics or facts to the table.. neither has anyone else to prove me wrong.

It seems like if I'm so off in my reasoning, that it should be very easy to show me the flaw in my thought process? I'm not getting offended, this issue ISNT very close to home for me. After I stop responding, I'll probably forget about this thread and this argument.

I'm just saying that right now, you're all disagreeing with me, and giving a lot of arguments that I feel are kinda cop-out excuses. None of it is a solid reason for the legalization, and even if I'm not right.. neither has anyone else really been so far. Maybe there is no absolute right choice. And just because there isnt a good reason not to, isnt a good reason to do anything that affects other people.

Ayumi

You do realize that statistically, the majority of SL users are people between the ages like 28-40? Statistically, I'm more likely to have this argument (on a SL related forum) with middle aged white ladies living in suburbia, than just about any other group.

And even so, how do either of you render my (very) previous statements any less true? I mean seriously, I know you all keep saying they arent true or that you dont agree.. but beyond this argument in this forum.. find a statistic that says I'm wrong if you want to prove I'm wrong.. just saying that you feel my opinion is wrong.. just makes it opinion vs opinion :/

I'd be more than happy to find a statistic that points to me being right


"According to the 2001 National Household Survey on Drug Abuse, an estimated 5.6 million Americans age 12 or older reported problems with illicit drug use in the past year." - http://parentingteens.about.com/cs/m...arijuana10.htm

How many people do you think smoke weed? 10% of the population? 15%?

300m * .15 = 45m, and whats 5.6m out of 45? about 12%? Its not a small number, and thats just minors :/

Ayumi

Like I said before, I absolutely agree with the issue of overpopulated prisons, and even prison sentences for those on drug charges as one of the largest contributing factors to it.

But there are other ways to solve that issue, that are potentially less harmful.. or less "chancy"

Joshua Nightshade

I don't know what kind of facts and statistics you're looking for.

I mean do you really think it's fair that in some states getting caught with a joint on you three times lands you in prison as long as someone who actually murdered someone else?

That's not hyperbole or an overreaction, a guy I worked with at an old job was arrested for exactly that: possession of marijuana three times and he hit a three strikes rule because of it. He didn't even sell it, or commit crimes while on it, simply using it had him serving a ridiculous sentence for his recreational activity.

I honestly think that a better use of the extensive budget spent on drug raids and surveillance and prosecution and appeals and jailing can be found. Like maybe for education or projects that increase jobs or that sort of thing.

I don't do drugs, never have, have no interest in them, but I also don't want my tax money spent on nannying after someone. All this stuff does is create a violent underground market.

Oh and let's also point out the dangers on the other end as well which would be solved by legalization: I had a friend in NYC die after he used crystal meth that he bought from a dealer who, unbeknownst to the friend, was brewing it on his own in his apartment out of shit chemicals and cleaning products. That's another aspect of the whole drug process that would change if it came from a doctor's prescription.

Isablan Neva

Some facts would help.

Marijuana | Drug War Facts

__________________
________________________________

SLU: I came for the community. I stayed for the derails.

Vivianne Draper

Well I'll tell you what. You don't call me a pothead and I won't call you an illogical idiot -- deal?

You admit that you are pulling this stuff "off the top of your head" and that you haven't posted one single fact. In fact, what you are doing is making shit up.

Here's some numbers:

Federal prisons were estimated to hold 179,204 sentenced inmates as of Sept. 30, 2007. Of these, 15,647 were incarcerated for violent offenses, including 2,915 for homicide, 8,966 for robbery, and 3,939 for other violent crimes. In addition, 10,345 inmates were serving time for property crimes, including 504 for burglary, 7,834 for fraud, and 2,006 for other property offenses. A total of 95,446 were incarcerated for drug offenses. Also, 56,237 were incarcerated for public-order offenses, including 19,528 for immigration offenses and 24,435 for weapons offenses.
Source: Sabol, William J., PhD, and West, Heather C., Bureau of Justice Statistics, Prisoners in 2007 (Washington, DC: US Department of Justice, December 2008), NCJ224280, p. 22, Appendix Table 12.



According to the American Corrections Association, the average daily cost per state prison inmate per day in the US is $67.55. State prisons held 253,300 inmates for drug offenses in 2005. That means states spent approximately $17,110,415 per day to imprison drug offenders, or $6,245,301,475 per year.
Source: American Correctional Association, 2006 Directory of Adult and Juvenile Correctional Departments, Institutions, Agencies and Probation and Parole Authorities, 67th Edition (Alexandria, VA: ACA, 2006), p. 16; Sabol, William J., PhD, and West, Heather C., Bureau of Justice Statistics, Prisoners in 2007 (Washington, DC: US Department of Justice, December 2008), NCJ224280, p. 21, Appendix Table 10.

"The United States has the highest prison population rate in the world, some 738 per 100,000 of the national population, followed by Russia (611), St Kitts & Nevis (547), U.S. Virgin Is. (521), Turkmenistan (c.489), Belize (487), Cuba (c.487), Palau (478), British Virgin Is. (464), Bermuda (463), Bahamas (462), Cayman Is. (453), American Samoa (446), Belarus (426) and Dominica (419).
"However, more than three fifths of countries (61%) have rates below 150 per 100,000. (The rate in England and Wales - 148 per 100,000 of the national population - is above the mid-point in the World List.)"
Source: Walmsley, Roy, "World Prison Population List (Seventh Edition)" (London, England: International Centre for Prison Studies, 2007), p. 1.

Treatment or Incarceration? Drug Addiction Facts
Facts Show Drug Treatment More Effective Than Incarceration


Rehabilitation vs Incarceration:
Non-Violent Women Drug Offenders
By: Charon Schwartz
11/19/2001

I am a daughter, a sister, a mother of four children, a classical pianist and teacher, a drug addict, a felon, and inmate #N87420 of the Illinois Department of Corrections.

Sentencing Reform for Nonviolent Offenses:

Benefits and Estimated Savings for Illinois

A little research goes a long way but you hold these assumptions on knowledge you admit is limited and unresearched. Its people like you whom I'm afraid of voting on our laws since you obviously won't even take an hour or two to research something you feel so strongly about. The madness that is the war on drugs in the US has got to stop. It does not work, it is expensive, we cannot afford it, it is harmful to our communities and it is not fairly administered across ethnicities. Furthermore the social stigma associated with addition makes it difficult for those who get addicted that actually want help to seek it out. If you do a little research on methadone clinics (I know I'm straying out of the pot area now but I feel your opinions are formed by all the propoganda for the war on drugs) you'll see that they are underfunded and in great demand. People want to get help, yet the help is not there. But they can get thrown in prison at the drop of a hat. And here comes someone like you -- not you personally although you've definitely demonstrated that you lack research and knowledge -- who thinks that looking outside the box for other solutions is a 'bad idea.' So that's where your arguments, such as they are, are illogical.

Vivianne Draper

Wow look at the numbers on the chart on this link!

Drug Use Trends - Factsheet - Drug Facts

Those who are not minors have almost double the drug use of those who are!

Ayumi

Yeah, I absolutely agree with you on those points Josh. Unfortunately I have been agreeing on those points the entire time though. I very strongly feel that a revision of our criminal justice system could correct that problem though.. and it seems like its the most reasonable way to address the problem. Directly.

the facts and statistics I'm looking for, are the ones I made in my first post..

"But what I think everyone needs to realize, is that the large number of the people regurgitating this crap.. are people who are A) choosing breaking the law, to abuse an illegal substance for recreation, and B) very often people who are making the conscious decision to choose recreation over long term financial stability/success, C) a minor."


And to address Viv. You're still arguing for a point that I agree with, to try and disprove me? Sorry if I didnt make it clear. When you disagree with something I'm saying, do your best to prove it wrong if you want it to be proven wrong on that specific point.

I want you to provide evidence that I'm wrong, about what I'm saying. Not what I'm not saying. Just because the prison system needs a break, doesnt make anything else untrue. Especially when the prison system issue is something I have been agreeing with.

Merovigan

I'm done taking you seriously.

For the above reason.

__________________
“I prefer to be true to myself, even at the hazard of incurring the ridicule of others, rather than to be false, and to incur my own abhorrence.”

Frederick Douglas

Vivianne Draper

i disagreed. i posted a chart to back it up. So idid Isaban. When you come up with some charts of your own, maybe i'll agree with you.

Vivianne Draper

thanks. me too.

Merovigan

Facts are not crap. You don't know what you're talking about.

Abuse?

I make a LOT more money than you. I will retire a LOT richer than you.



Seriously...you have no fucking clue what you're talking about. You're like a fish describing air right now. Stop embarrassing yourself.

Joshua Nightshade

No you aren't, you're black.










/runs

Ayumi

So factor in availability. Its much more difficult for a 12 year old to have access to a substance that costs money, than it is for a 25 year old.

which further reinforces my argument, that simple availability in numbers is one of the things keeping drugs out of minors hands.

Ayumi

Unless you're making 6 figures, I doubt you make more money than I do. But what point does that prove, we're sitting here on computers that a cost decent amount of money, playing a game that wastes time, on a broadband connection that costs money.

Would you be able to make the same argument if you lived in an area of financial poverty? I'm sure the numbers of drug use per capita dont change THAT much depending on an areas financial situation only.

And to clarify, sure. We'll call it use. I called it abuse, because its illegal.

Ayumi

Oh no! just because they dont have a overvalidated reason to argue a point, must mean that they shouldnt argue it!

Quick, to the "I dont care about you" cave! Surely that must invalidate every point I've made. Because logical argument cant come from people who dont really care about the issue. Everyone knows that!